Sudden, and Disturbing Discovery

[irishfarmer]

Ok, I just want to make sure that I understand something, that seems incredibly stupid, but yet my mind resists what really seems sadly clear. Most of you know that regularly read this forum, that I am very much a noob and am just learning how to play warhammer. I have just discovered something that seems to be VERY hard to believe about this rule system. You really have no control over what your spell casters bring to the fight. Ouch.

Here is what I am seeing. You spend a tremendous number of points... and if he is level one he gets one spell. You spend more points, and he gets...yippee...two spells because he is level 2. You spend even more points to get a four point caster and he gets...that's right 4 spells. And the kicker is, you don't really have any guarantee that the spells he gets to have will do you ANY good. Indeed, you might set up your army to run basically on the assumption that you will get a certain spell...say Amber Spear because you are fighting dwarfs (and he's brought a steam engine!). You choose the lore, roll dice...and Pow....you don't have amber spear anyway.

Really....

I have not seen this discussed, so I am half hopeful that this is not really the case, and that I have really misunderstood, or perhaps that this is something that has been changed by the errata. I must say however, that if I have understood this rightly, and I fear that I have....I think its an incredibly ridiculous set of rules for its casters. Please tell me that I am wrong.

If I am right, please don't tell me to do deal with it. I have already spent 300+dollars just getting into this game. So yeah...I guess I will deal with it. But having played lots of table top games, the magic rules for this game are quite disappointing.

[irishfarmer]

Well, further reading only confirms my understanding that you cannot count on getting any particular spells for a battle except dispel. Not really an exciting system for spell casting! Well, buck up little trooper...soldier on, chin up...and all that rot! You've dropped a ton 'a cash on the game, so yer not giving up now!

[Shandrakor]

If you take a level 4 Wizard you have a greater than 90% chance to get any single spell you want from a Lore of magic. It's not really as bad as it seems. Though you are right it does kind of suck that you have to roll for your spells (which is true, through and through). At the same time it adds a bit of randomness to the game and insures you cannot use the same tactics to win absolutely every game... Which in the long run is probably a good thing.

Here is what I am seeing. You spend a tremendous number of points... and if he is level one he gets one spell. You spend more points, and he gets...yippee...two spells because he is level 2. You spend even more points to get a four point caster and he gets...that's right 4 spells. And the kicker is, you don't really have any guarantee that the spells he gets to have will do you ANY good. Indeed, you might set up your army to run basically on the assumption that you will get a certain spell...say Amber Spear because you are fighting dwarfs (and he's brought a steam engine!). You choose the lore, roll dice...and Pow....you don't have amber spear anyway.

As for this...
1.) It's Empire that has Steam Tanks, not Dwarves.

2.) Don't try to setup your army list so that it requires magic to be effective. You're only setting yourself up for disappointment. (Players can dispel your spells and your Wizard can die to an early miscast.)

3.) Wizards are a calculated risk. Just as any unit you put on the board can be extremely effective or very ineffective, so too can magic based on how good your dice are to you.

[Billthesurly]

Sooooooo what? You want to just go ahead and pick your spells? Where's the fun, mystery and excitement (crushing disappointment, frustration and maddening futility) of that? I feel your pain but really, do you want a system that gives armies like High Elves, Lizardmen and Chaos just any spell they want, whenever they want it? What? Oh, they do? Well never mind that then. Bad example.

But seriously. With a fourth level Spellweaver the odds are pretty darn good that you will get at least one of the spells that you really, REALLY want. Somebody put up a table on this board once that gave the odds of getting any given spell with a fourth level. With the ability to flat out pick a spell when doubles are rolled it is pretty high. Some kind soul will probably point it out to you soon. But there is that chance, it is always there, that you will NOT get the spell your are counting on. Best advice I can give. Don't play an army list that relies on getting one or two spells. Cruisin for a bruisin. (I personally like that there is some degree of randomness to getting spells. Other armies that can pick them due to being Lore Masters or some such generally pay for the priviledge.)

Ah, I see Shandrakor has beaten me to the post. And there's the odds right there. Nuthin more to add.

[Moose123]

Bill I want you to take 2 years to get some intense typing training. I'm talking 90+ words a minute, then you will be able to beat Shandrakor to post these things.

As your general manager, I will have no choice to cut you from the team if you prove unable to cope with such a competitive environment.
If you want to make it in the big leagues you need to step up your game



Picking spells would be broken, the way I play it makes it even more random because we reroll doubles instead of just picking a spell.

[Shandrakor]

Bill I want you to take 2 years to get some intense typing training. I'm talking 90+ words a minute, then you will be able to beat Shandrakor to post these things.

To be fair, Bill's posts are almost unilaterally more amusing than mine, so that's gotta count for something... right?!

[Moose123]

True, Bill adds in the extra comedic value. I may have to reconsider trading him over to another team.

[Billthesurly]

All the world loves a clown.
Laugh and the world laughs with you, cry and you cry alone.
And my personal favorite; If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.

[Ravenlord]

Laugh and the world laughs with you, cry and you cry alone.

Not on this site.

[irishfarmer]

Okay, so I have had my qq fest. Thanks for an understanding reaction and not giving me the business...cause after all..."it is what it is."

It really comes down to what you are used to, I guess, and I have not played a game that has such an important dynamic subject to a die roll. The only thing I can think of is Germans Tank ace rolls in flames of war. And even then, any one of those rolls are not necessarily broken or game changers in themselves.

All the same, can't wait to find an opponent near me and start rolling dice. This really is looking to me to be a pretty marvelous game (not that you folks needed me to tell you that!).

Oh yes, as for Bill, I have to admit I have already begun to seek out his posts!

[JohnnyM]

Bring back the magic cards says I. Draw em from a deck and keep your eye out for the slightly dog-eared one that you remember contains your go-to spell. Rose-tinted spectacles...buy one get one free.

Irishfarmer, the winds of magic are unpredictable, malevolent and utterly dangerous. Hence you must roll some dice

[Dragon halitosis]

Yeah, magic is chancy... but then so is most of this game. With the current edition, the mad dice rolling has become even more prominent over tactics. Many veteran gamers have given up on WHFB because of this reason. Personally I find the fist full of dice factor another good reason to ensure I don't play this game without sufficient beer... and not just because my other army are Dwarves. Still, it remains fun, and if we wanted a game with no randomness we'd all be playing chess.

[dusk1983]

As to the orginal post, I agree that not being able to get the spells you want can seem a bit frustrating.

But this is where army composition comes in to it, and army building. You're not looking to build an army to work around a specific spell, you're looking for a selection of spells that complimnent your army and your play style.

Yes, Empire are fielding a steam tank and you don't have amber spear. So slow down the tank with curse of aranhreir. Buff you're treekin unit to strength 6 toughness 6 with wyssans wildform. TURN INTO A DRAGON/MANTICORE. Its not about the individual spells, its about the lore. But as an awesome newbie Irishfarmer the most important thing to remember is that its a game and sometimes we lose. (i for example lose a LOT). And you are 100% correct that casters are overpriced, but they have the power to change the game entirely, or not. 8th ed really buffed casters back up to awesome when the dice love them.

[Git]

Bring back the magic cards says I.

I still have the 5th edition Battle Magic box!

[JohnnyM]

I still have the 5th edition Battle Magic box!

You mean you did. You decided to pack them into a box and send them to me, free of charge, didn't you?

[Git]

I still have the 5th edition Battle Magic box!

You mean you did. You decided to pack them into a box and send them to me, free of charge, didn't you?

Yeah, I did. You just hang out by your mail box until it arrives.

[JohnnyM]

I still have the 5th edition Battle Magic box!

You mean you did. You decided to pack them into a box and send them to me, free of charge, didn't you?

Yeah, I did. You just hang out by your mail box until it arrives.

Jokes on you, Git! Us Brits can't trust the local addicts not to steal our mailboxes, so we have installed letterboxes instead. I have instructed the dog to wait patiently

[caledor]

On the bright side, most armies have a character or item to get access to the Loremaster rule.

So just take the wood elf with loremaster.

.... oh wait.