Version 4 of My Complete Revised Wood Elf Codex

[Shandrakor]

When I was thinking of the wolf steed I was thinking less along the lines of the short squat goblin wolves but more of the space wolf character.

Hmm, I don't play 40k so I had to look up what wolf you were talking about and I only saw one special character with a wolf mount. Suffice to say, I think we have enough mounts to choose from with Great Stags, Unicorns, Great Eagles, War Hawks, Horses, and Dragons as options.

On reflection I think you we right about the heroic lethal shot as it would make the waywatcher kindred to exspencive to use

I don't know about making the Kindred too expensive, but certainly on the regular Waywatchers it would be too strong. Maybe making it a single shot only by forgoing all the normal shots to make a pinpoint shot that has a chance of Heroic Killing Blow might be an option for the Waywatcher Kindred characters.

[Deadly arrow]

When I was thinking of a heroic ledgendery shot I was thinking of it as a magic arrow / a waywatcher caricter Instead of multiple shots, perhaps with lowered bs and short range to take down those new nasty enemy modles

[Anilar]

Have a question. If a character buys a magic weapon that adds attacks, does that influence the number of shots too. ?

[Kojibear]

Have a question. If a character buys a magic weapon that adds attacks, does that influence the number of shots too. ?

I don't think so. I assume that the bow of loren uses the base number of attacks on the stat line. The only way to increase the shots would be to choose an alter kindred.

[Kojibear]

Same rule would apply here I guess??

[Anilar]

Would be the way I would play it, that the magic weapon didn't have any influence. But never thought about it before, since buying bow of loren in a normal wood elf army, would make it impossible to buy a sword that adds attacks.
So was curious how others would interpret it, with this army special rules.

[Shandrakor]

Have a question. If a character buys a magic weapon that adds attacks, does that influence the number of shots too. ?

No, as the magic weapon only increases Attacks while wielding it in close combat. There's a GW FAQ reference about that in the BRB FAQ.

Q: Does a magic item or spell that gives a bonus to a
characteristic, do so bonus for all rules purposes (e.g. the effect of
spells, characteristic tests, etc)? (p4)
A: Yes, except for magic weapons or where the description of
the item or spell specifically says otherwise.

Q: When does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic give
that bonus?(p4)
A: Most weapons, including magic weapons, state when the
bonus is given. For example, a model with the Fencer’s Blades
will always have Weapon Skill 10 whilst a model with a great
weapon will only have +2 Strength when striking an enemy in
close combat. When a weapon does not say when the
characteristic bonus applies, then it only applies when striking,
or being struck, in close combat.

I don't think so. I assume that the bow of loren uses the base number of attacks on the stat line. The only way to increase the shots would be to choose an alter kindred. Same rule would apply here I guess??

Yes, this is the case.

Would be the way I would play it, that the magic weapon didn't have any influence. But never thought about it before, since buying bow of loren in a normal wood elf army, would make it impossible to buy a sword that adds attacks.
So was curious how others would interpret it, with this army special rules.

Yeah, the intent was that unless you were Alter Kindred, that you could not increase the number of shots unless you increased the profile statistic via something like The Savage Beast of Horros or The Crown of Thorns.

[Astheal Treewoven]

Top darts for this new book. Absolutely lovin it.

Main thing i love is my wardancers are viable again :-) and i can't believe I've seen a competitive list that involves Glade Riders

[Shandrakor]

Top darts for this new book. Absolutely lovin it.

Main thing i love is my wardancers are viable again :-) and i can't believe I've seen a competitive list that involves Glade Riders

Ha! Thanks Astheal. I'm thinking about dropping the Fae Thunder and adding the Stag Knights I made in another thread. Kinda don't like having 2 Ethereal units in the list and the Stag Knights bring in the Impact Hits that the Fae Thunder was there for anyways. Also would add Impact Hits to the Great Stag mount were I to do that.

After that there's the option of adding Bladesingers or the White Hart too, but I'm not sure they're totally necessary. Still, it'd be nice to have more interesting options I guess. I'm kind of torn on what to add, drop, or just leave the list alone, since it's already in a fairly good spot. This is the main reason I haven't written up the Version 5 with the changes people have already suggested (most notably minimum of 1 Movement on the Lore Attribute for Athel Loren Lore among other things).

[alvinzimmerman]

Great list! It is very well thought out.

I am curious about the experience that you, or anyone else, has had in using this list. Are all the units valuable? Have opponents complained about rules, stats, or prices? Is Athel Loren magic actually useful!? Etc.

Also, I really like the idea of Stag Knights

[Shandrakor]

Great list! It is very well thought out.

I am curious about the experience that you, or anyone else, has had in using this list. Are all the units valuable? Have opponents complained about rules, stats, or prices? Is Athel Loren magic actually useful!? Etc.

Also, I really like the idea of Stag Knights

Thanks Alvin, glad you like it.

I'm very likely to drop the Fae Thunder for the Great Stag Knights in revision 5, since they were already hinted at in the Storms of Magic book and they would provide the Impact Hits that the Fae Thunder was trying to achieve anyways.

As for testing the list, Rusty from this forum gave version 3 a whirl in a test game and I made some adjustments based on that. I, myself, haven't been able to test it properly yet because I just haven't been able to get down to the game shop much lately except for tournaments, which, probably obviously, are restricted to normal lists. Anyways, feel free to give it a whirl yourself if you like it and see what your thoughts are then. Any feedback is welcome.

[Doorstepwaster]

Hello Shandrakor

Really great list, tested it out and completely beat an alliance of Chaos Dwarfes (Legion of Azgor from the Tamurkhan book) and deamons.

Only thing we thought should be changed is the strength of the Bow of Lathrain (the s10 one). That lord took out a Keeper of Secrets and a M'kai (?) Destroyer (firebeast thingy from Legion of Azgor). Figured s6 would be more fair? Otherwise it's a 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound bolt thrower of massive damage outputness.

And again, thanks for posting the list, it's awesome!

[Shandrakor]

Hello Shandrakor

Hey Doorstepwaster.

Really great list, tested it out and completely beat an alliance of Chaos Dwarfes (Legion of Azgor from the Tamurkhan book) and deamons.

Sounds like you had a fairly big game there, mind going into a little more detail? I.e. give examples of what went well, what didn't, and your general thoughts on anything that might be over or under powered?

Only thing we thought should be changed is the strength of the Bow of Lathrain (the s10 one). That lord took out a Keeper of Secrets and a M'kai (?) Destroyer (firebeast thingy from Legion of Azgor). Figured s6 would be more fair? Otherwise it's a 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound bolt thrower of massive damage outputness.

That weapon is kind of hit or miss. It acts like a cannon and is extremely expensive, so it should have a heck of a lot of damage output. It eats 215+ points from your Lord allotment, means your General is light on defensive gear, and you can only get one of them. This is as compared to cannons, which do the same damage output, are only slightly less accurate, and you can have multiple of them for the same or slightly more cost than the Highborn with Bow of Lathain. The cannons come from special allotment too, which isn't eating from your spell-casting power (Lords points) in low to medium point games.

If the Strength of the weapon goes down to 6 then it's just like a weak bolt thrower that almost no (Dark or High) Elven lists worth their salt take any more. So think about it. If you didn't shoot that Keeper of Secrets with the Bow, then how would you have dealt with it? If it gets in combat, it's a brutal and nigh unstoppable (with Spirit Swallower Daemonic power) monster of a character that would have wrecked your lines. The Bow makes other people think about protecting their Monsters with line of sight like we do with buildings and our Treemen against cannons. Also note, that Bow shot can be Ward Saved before it multiplies Wounds like any other multi-Wound weapon. On average it would have taken 2 shots to kill the Keeper of Secrets anyways.

And again, thanks for posting the list, it's awesome!

You're welcome, glad you like it! I'd greatly appreciate it if you could take the time to post a little bit more information about your battle so I can get a better feel for how it went down. Like what type of battle did you play and how did each unit do compared to the opponent's units? Did your opponents find any units too difficult to handle, or too easy to handle when they shouldn't have been?

Thanks again for taking the time to have a play-test with this list!

[Doorstepwaster]

We did a 5000 pts WE vs 2500 pts DoC and 2500 CD and to make up for the two armies sharing of magic dice, we rolled 4d6 for winds of magic

First of all, I am really happy with how much more viable shooting is with an entire army of Asrai Longbows. It scared the enemy units enough to have them running around confused trying to take down smal units. Also the update on forest spirits ward save were important for my dryads holding af forest long enough for my horde of EG to smash into the side of a horde of Bloodletters. The EG units performance is so much better with the extra point of strength from the saeraths.

Fast-moving wardancers are also a great asset, as the extra movement really let me place where i wanted them and where they would hurt the enemy (while these were huntning archers and scouts). Always strikes first makes them even more hardhitting due to re-rolls and suddenly they are actually worth 18 pts.

So generally my elves performed so much better, and didn't even miss my letting out treekin. Also, opening up for shadow magic along with life did improve everything my EG did - enfeebled bloodletters can't touch stone-fleshed EG nor ordinary dryads. I didn't get to try out so big a part of the wood elf lore of magic and forgot the quite important lore attribute though.

So, generally not much to say. You've made the elf units more viable - they are now worth their points - and the play style is the same, yet improved, because we do things better without getting too overpowered.

About the Bow of Lathrain - I would compare it to a bolt thrower rather than a cannon. I don't remember the cost of a great cannon, but that one has a 1/6 chance to misfire every turn and 1/18 to explode (if my maths doesn't fail), unless you take along an engineer for extra cost and that makes the bow a really reliable cannon that can't be stopped by obstacles. I do believe it needs a think-through.

Anyway, I'm going to playtest the list again in a battle royale all vs all (5 players) and each bringing 3500 pts. It will happen this friday and I'll return with more thought after that.

Thanks again for the list.

[Shandrakor]

We did a 5000 pts WE vs 2500 pts DoC and 2500 CD and to make up for the two armies sharing of magic dice, we rolled 4d6 for winds of magic

Wow, pretty big game there. Sounds like you got to use quite a bit of the army.

First of all, I am really happy with how much more viable shooting is with an entire army of Asrai Longbows. It scared the enemy units enough to have them running around confused trying to take down smal units. Also the update on forest spirits ward save were important for my dryads holding af forest long enough for my horde of EG to smash into the side of a horde of Bloodletters. The EG units performance is so much better with the extra point of strength from the saeraths.

Sounds like the adjustments were working then. The Forest Spirit Ward Save working against Daemons was a major reason for changing it to be a true Ward Save. The shooting getting viable for units other than Glade Guard is a major bonus too. As for the Eternal Guard, those took some iteration, but I think they're in a pretty good spot right now.

Fast-moving wardancers are also a great asset, as the extra movement really let me place where i wanted them and where they would hurt the enemy (while these were huntning archers and scouts). Always strikes first makes them even more hardhitting due to re-rolls and suddenly they are actually worth 18 pts.

I wasn't sure if the extra point of movement was going to make Wardancers much stronger or not, but it sounds like it came in handy. Definitely agree that ASF comes a long way to make Wardancers worth their salt for their cost now too.

So generally my elves performed so much better, and didn't even miss my letting out treekin. Also, opening up for shadow magic along with life did improve everything my EG did - enfeebled bloodletters can't touch stone-fleshed EG nor ordinary dryads. I didn't get to try out so big a part of the wood elf lore of magic and forgot the quite important lore attribute though.

Yeah, in my Storm of Magic games I got to try out the Shadow/Life mage combo and I can agree that it works like a charm. As for the Wood Elf Lore, perhaps you can test it at the FFA game coming up.

So, generally not much to say. You've made the elf units more viable - they are now worth their points - and the play style is the same, yet improved, because we do things better without getting too overpowered.

That's good, and sounds like what I was going for.

About the Bow of Lathrain - I would compare it to a bolt thrower rather than a cannon. I don't remember the cost of a great cannon, but that one has a 1/6 chance to misfire every turn and 1/18 to explode (if my maths doesn't fail), unless you take along an engineer for extra cost and that makes the bow a really reliable cannon that can't be stopped by obstacles. I do believe it needs a think-through.

It might need toned down, but all I can think of is to do one of 3 things.
1.) Lower the Strength.
2.) Lower the Damage.
3.) Lower the Range.

If I do 1 or 2 I think it's going to need some buffing in another area. Like if, as suggested, I lower the Strength to 6, then I think I'd add Stand and Shooting back in for the bow and/or perhaps lower the cost of the item. If I lower the Damage, likewise I would probably add Stand and Shooting with the bow back in. Maybe lower cost too. Still, if I was going to lower the Strength I don't think I'd want to go below 7 with it. That gives a 50/50 chance to Wound most enemy war machines with it and needs a 5 or 6 to Wound Sphinxes and Steam Tanks respectively. Much more likely to do little to nothing all game then for your expensive Highborn.

Anyway, I'm going to playtest the list again in a battle royale all vs all (5 players) and each bringing 3500 pts. It will happen this friday and I'll return with more thought after that.

Thanks again for the list.

Sounds good, lemme know how it goes.

[Chacho]

Good job! I really like it.
In particular i like the new wardancer and the new warhawk riders(finally are effectives and playable decent).
I have some suggestions:
1-seeing that now the wardancer have the ward save 5+ the shadow coil dance is underpowered,you can give a -1 for hit the wardancer when he practise this dance?
2-I think the heroic killing blow for the wardancer is too powerful,i personally would give the secondary effect of the Whirling Death dance for only the wardancer characters
3- In the lore of Athel Loren you would give a spell for created a mysterious forest,would be an incentive to use the tactic

[Shandrakor]

Good job! I really like it.
In particular i like the new wardancer and the new warhawk riders(finally are effectives and playable decent).
I have some suggestions:

Cheers! Hopefully everyone can find something they like in this army book update.

1-seeing that now the wardancer have the ward save 5+ the shadow coil dance is underpowered,you can give a -1 for hit the wardancer when he practise this dance?

Hmm, maybe. It's a thought I actually already had for a special character I made to modify the dances like that, but perhaps it's warranted without any special modifiers.

2-I think the heroic killing blow for the wardancer is too powerful,i personally would give the secondary effect of the Whirling Death dance for only the wardancer characters

Hmm, the thought was to make Whirling Death be used as much as the +1 Attacks dance is right now. Right now adding the extra attacks is pretty much always better unless you're fighting something like a 1+ armor save unit that can be hurt with killing blow. Those are pretty rare, and thus the Killing Blow dance is relegated to the back burner. With this change it would be used against a lot more bigger targets, but not against rank and file troops usually.

Anyways, if I went with giving Heroic Killing Blow only to the Wardancer characters, then it would create the awkward moment that the unit doesn't want to use the Killing Blow dance (because it's worthless without HKB against Monsters/Monstrous Inf/Cav/Bst) and the character does, so I'd have to change the character Kindred to make it so dances don't have to be the same as the unit, which just sounds odd from a fluff perspective. Besides, it's limited to 1 per turn and Wardancers will get wrecked by Monstrous units if they don't kill them quickly (T3, 5+ Ward).

3- In the lore of Athel Loren you would give a spell for created a mysterious forest,would be an incentive to use the tactic

You know, that's a good idea and one I had myself recently. In another thread talking about how our Lore of Athel Loren should be revised I came up with the idea that we should just have a spell similar to the spell 'Madrigal of Greening' from the Storm of Magic book but only creating one forest at a time, not D3, that all Wood Elven Wizards know. Then the special for Wood Elven Wizards would be that they gain +1 to cast or so while within a forest. What do you think about that?

[Chacho]

Hmm, the thought was to make Whirling Death be used as much as the +1 Attacks dance is right now. Right now adding the extra attacks is pretty much always better unless you're fighting something like a 1+ armor save unit that can be hurt with killing blow. Those are pretty rare, and thus the Killing Blow dance is relegated to the back burner. With this change it would be used against a lot more bigger targets, but not against rank and file troops usually.

Anyways, if I went with giving Heroic Killing Blow only to the Wardancer characters, then it would create the awkward moment that the unit doesn't want to use the Killing Blow dance (because it's worthless without HKB against Monsters/Monstrous Inf/Cav/Bst) and the character does, so I'd have to change the character Kindred to make it so dances don't have to be the same as the unit, which just sounds odd from a fluff perspective. Besides, it's limited to 1 per turn and Wardancers will get wrecked by Monstrous units if they don't kill them quickly (T3, 5+ Ward).

I see,but gain the killing blow at 5-6 to wound instead only 6? i think it's a good compromise

You know, that's a good idea and one I had myself recently. In another thread talking about how our Lore of Athel Loren should be revised I came up with the idea that we should just have a spell similar to the spell 'Madrigal of Greening' from the Storm of Magic book but only creating one forest at a time, not D3, that all Wood Elven Wizards know. Then the special for Wood Elven Wizards would be that they gain +1 to cast or so while within a forest. What do you think about that?

Good idea,but give the spell for create forest at all wood elf mage as the spell power of darkness for the dark elf sorcerer?

[Shandrakor]

I see,but gain the killing blow at 5-6 to wound instead only 6? i think it's a good compromise

What do you mean? Make the Killing Blow dance just be a 5 or 6 to Killing Blow base then and not have Heroic Killing Blow at all?

Good idea,but give the spell for create forest at all wood elf mage as the spell power of darkness for the dark elf sorcerer?

Yeah, that's what I mean. Like Dark Elf Wizards all get the spell, 'Power of Darkness,' Wood Elf Wizards would all get the new spell to create a forest. Then when Wood Elf Wizards are in a forest they would gain a +1 bonus to spell casting attempts as the other bonus. Seems like a much more dynamic and entertaining way of playing out the Wood Elf magic phase than it is currently, at least. This way, on boards with no forests besides the free one you start with, you could make The Hidden Path spell still be useful.

[Chacho]

What do you mean? Make the Killing Blow dance just be a 5 or 6 to Killing Blow base then and not have Heroic Killing Blow at all?

Yes,exactly

Yeah, that's what I mean. Like Dark Elf Wizards all get the spell, 'Power of Darkness,' Wood Elf Wizards would all get the new spell to create a forest. Then when Wood Elf Wizards are in a forest they would gain a +1 bonus to spell casting attempts as the other bonus. Seems like a much more dynamic and entertaining way of playing out the Wood Elf magic phase than it is currently, at least. This way, on boards with no forests besides the free one you start with, you could make The Hidden Path spell still be useful.

In this case i'm completely agree with you

[Doorstepwaster]

Hello again

I'm back after the great battle, but unfortunately bring no real news. Same things were proven during the short time we got to play, as one of my opponents had to leave early.

One thing report back about the WE lore you made, is that the attribute is great, as it delayed around 500 pts bull centaurs for 1 or 2 rounds and hidden path is great for point capture games - would be great to try test the lore another time.

I'll try to playtest the list again as soon as possible. Games are just greater, when you're up to date with your opponent.

[Shandrakor]

What do you mean? Make the Killing Blow dance just be a 5 or 6 to Killing Blow base then and not have Heroic Killing Blow at all?

Yes,exactly

I'll have to give this one some thought. Doing the 3 dances: 1.) Killing Blow on 5 or 6, 2.) +1 Attack, 3.) -1 to be hit in close combat, has some merit. It makes them weaker against Monstrous Infantry and Monsters for certain though.

Yeah, that's what I mean. Like Dark Elf Wizards all get the spell, 'Power of Darkness,' Wood Elf Wizards would all get the new spell to create a forest. Then when Wood Elf Wizards are in a forest they would gain a +1 bonus to spell casting attempts as the other bonus. Seems like a much more dynamic and entertaining way of playing out the Wood Elf magic phase than it is currently, at least. This way, on boards with no forests besides the free one you start with, you could make The Hidden Path spell still be useful.

In this case i'm completely agree with you

Good, that's settled then, I'll definitely add that in revision 5.

Hello again
I'm back after the great battle, but unfortunately bring no real news. Same things were proven during the short time we got to play, as one of my opponents had to leave early.

That's OK. Feel free to take whatever time you need or not at all if you don't. This isn't a rush job project or anything.

One thing report back about the WE lore you made, is that the attribute is great, as it delayed around 500 pts bull centaurs for 1 or 2 rounds and hidden path is great for point capture games - would be great to try test the lore another time.

Sounds great. Good luck getting the other test game together.

I'll try to playtest the list again as soon as possible. Games are just greater, when you're up to date with your opponent.

Heh, yeah, having a decent variety of meaningful choices before each game certainly makes playing Warhammer more enjoyable. Again, good luck with your test game(s).

[Chacho]

I have an idea for a new kindred:
Wind Rider Kindreds
A Wood Elf Noble may be a member of this kindred for +30 points
A Wood Elf Higborn may be a member of this kindred for +50 points
A character from the Wind Rider Kindreds gain the rules Flying cavalry and Hit and Run,he must ride a Warhawk or a Great Eagle(chosen at the additional cost from the army list),if he is in a unit of Warhawk Riders he gain a Look Out Sir at 2+.
If the general of the army is a Wood Elf Higborn of the Wind Rider Kindred the Warhawk Riders are a core unit.
What do you think?

[Shandrakor]

I have an idea for a new kindred:
Wind Rider Kindreds
A Wood Elf Noble may be a member of this kindred for +30 points
A Wood Elf Higborn may be a member of this kindred for +50 points
A character from the Wind Rider Kindreds gain the rules Flying cavalry and Hit and Run,he must ride a Warhawk or a Great Eagle(chosen at the additional cost from the army list),if he is in a unit of Warhawk Riders he gain a Look Out Sir at 2+.
If the general of the army is a Wood Elf Higborn of the Wind Rider Kindred the Warhawk Riders are a core unit.
What do you think?

It's not bad, and I thought about making a Kindred for Great Eagle or Warhawk riding characters, but we already had the 'Wild Rider Kindred' so I thought it was borrowing too much from there. That, combined with the fact that normally you can't join characters to flying units, made me want to add the rule to Warhawk Riders specifically, so that it's obvious they can be joined due to their special rules. Also, if you give all those bonuses to a Kindred, it tacks on more points to a character that doesn't really add much besides being able to join the Warhawks and do what they do already.

[Chacho]

you have reason,when i was think at this kindred i'm based on the codex not for your revised version.
But the idea of consider the warhawk as core choice if the general of army is an higborn on a great eagle(likewise bretonnia with pegasus knight and lord on a royal pegasus) is operable?