Eternal Guard Fix

[Satyr]

Eternal Guard are quite expensive points wise.

As a combat troop its an issue of survivability. A T increase is out of the question since they're elves and although a ward save would be nice maybe thats too run of the mill and will just make them feel like Phoenix Guard.

An Idea that crossed my mind would be to make them -1 to hit in CC. Do you like it?

How would you fix Eternal Guard?

Moved to the Weald of Evolution

Baardah

[Satyr]

p.s sorry I think this is in the wrong place.

[SeanyPrawny]

I've often long thought that a -1 to hit all wood elves would solve alot of their problems without being too overpowered. Though I suppose just having it on the eternal guard would do. It can just be another benefit of the fighting style.

[Billthesurly]

I would not change their combat abilities but I would make them less expensive. Granting blanket changes like a -1 to hit begins to get really nasty when an additional minus is imposed for any reason. A character fighting with a unit of -1 to hit EG and using the Dawnspear would be somewhat imbalancing yes? Perhaps when a new Welf book hits the stores they might (will) change the magic items available to us and make such a thing possible. We'll see.

[CainTheHunter]

And they should go into Core section without fielding Highborn as Army general.

[Calindor]

Another fix could be to just make them stubborn, even with out a noble in it. Gives more flexibilty to building your army and also make them better for little change

[-dragon-]

Since most EG units will have a Noble with them anyway (eg a BSB), this won't really change anything.

I like the -1 to hit idea though. Seriously, with the dawnspear they would be hit on 6's mainly. Considering the lack of a ward save, only T3 and the 5+ AS, this would not make them more durable than the bulk of the core ranked CC units in other books, who mostly have better armor, higher toughness or a ward save. Or a combination of these. And that for less points.

I like the idea, in that case I would actually consider using them again

[Dragon halitosis]

I'd steer clear of -1 to hit and all that. Personally I think replacing the 5+ armour save, whcih is mostly attributed to their fancy stick swinging and blocks, I'd make it 6 plus armour and a 5+ parry save - with the same types of benefits/restrictions of normal parry saves. Makes them more vulnerable to shooting (as a trade off for game balance) and better in combat against most troops. Only stomp attacks would be a problem... although those tend to get through the 5+ armour anyway.

[Noght]

I ran an EGuard block with HB, BSB, Weaver w/Harp (2nd rank) with 32 so a 5x7 Bus (after I Miscast on 3 Dice, killing 8 of my own) handle a combo charge from 2 units of WP supported Halberdiers (6x5) both with Speed of Light and one with Glittering Scales and win the round of combat, he made his 4 LD saves (re-rolls with BSB).
Next round, one ran. Reformed. (This runner was eventually shot down by GG).
Next round, one ran and was caught.
Took another charge from a WP Halberdier Bus (with Hammer of Sigmar) and defeated it but failed to run it down. (15 models left).
Then declared a charge causing the fleeing Halbs off the table, redirected to a Spear Bunker w/2 lvl 4 Mages/BSB who elected to flee and then ran off the table.

End of the Game I had 1 EG left + HB + BSB after 4 miscasts (all on 3 dice) killing 22 of my own of the original 32. (Rolled two 6's, 7, and 8 on MC table, Weaver died eventually).

They were Brilliant. No fix required except cost methinks. Maybe stubborn all the time seems reasonable or a significant Bodyguard Special Rule.

Noght

[Moose123]

Points decrease and a rethink of the bodyguard rule.

[Ravenlord]

I´m with Noght on this one. They can really be quite brilliant. It´s all in the way you play, as always - with everything. Personally, I think it´s cool to have a unit that benefit from the additional hand weapon rule, spear rule AND armour just because they are that good with their weapons. Fluffwise, awesome.
Furthermore I think that M5, WS5, I5 and Ld9 (+ potential stubborn) just isn´t that shitty.

But of course, they are no living, elven Grave Guards for 11 points/model

[Noght]

I´m with Noght on this one. They can really be quite brilliant. It´s all in the way you play, as always - with everything. Personally, I think it´s cool to have a unit that benefit from the additional hand weapon rule, spear rule AND armour just because they are that good with their weapons. Fluffwise, awesome.
Furthermore I think that M5, WS5, I5 and Ld9 (+ potential stubborn) just isn´t that shitty.

Great minds and all that. I'd pay 12 if they were always stubborn without Noble/Highborn. If the new Greatswords can be stubborn for 11 then 12 for EG is fine.

Noght

[Ravenlord]

Agreed. Although if they had some sort of special rule that alowed all the fighting ranks in the unit to benefit from that extra attack ontop of permanent stubborn, I would gladly pay 13 points/model. Hell, make it 14! Well, maybe not 14...

Would probably be a bit cheesy though...

[dusk1983]

I agree with most of what is said above. I don't like the -1 to hit seeing as they're already WS5 which is putting them above par anyway meaning common humans have a hard time hitting them.

What I would like is:
As said above-
Parry Save
Permanently stubborn
And my own 2 cents-
+1 strength on first round of combat (or better yet all the time) - I love my EG but find they just cant *kill* anything, theyre already a great defensive unit.

[SeanyPrawny]

Don't warriors of nurgle have -1 to be hit? in shooting aswell. They're also WS5 but with 4+armour and t4.

[Ravenlord]

Yeah but they cost 15 points/model plus another 30 for the mark, not 12p/model plus nothing.

[Noght]

Don't warriors of nurgle have -1 to be hit? in shooting aswell. They're also WS5 but with 4+armour and t4.

Yeah. And WoC Warriors units are underpriced and overpowered so they aren't a very good comparasion. IF they paid an upcharge/model it would be better. Though the new WoC book is gonna make for some sad WoCcy Generals methinks. (Or GW knowing it's cash cows will leave them galactically OP along with DoC because everyone thinks that Chaos is cool.)

Noght

[SeanyPrawny]

I know but with the eternal Guard being so much worse than them stat wise and they wouldn't have the -1 against shooting it balances the points. I've never seen a unit of less than 30 chaos warriors so thats 1pt extra per model. Thats a 4pt difference for an extra point of armour, strength and toughness and the -1. I don't see it being too overpowered on the eternal guard at 12 points. Thats just me though

Nought jumping in before I can click submit, Yeah I agree that WOC are over powered and underpriced I guess I just want a slice of that cake for the woodelves haha

[Billthesurly]

I agree that something has to be done about the UP Eternal Guard and the OP WoC and DoC but do we REALLY want to counter cheese by being cheezy ourselves? I pray that GW can come up with a better solution than that.

[Calindor]

I totally agree with you Billythesurly, when GW brings out a new armybook I want a balanced one that is fun to use. Can´t actualyl not wait until one is releaased (even if it´s propably several years until they will, of course i hope sooner). At the same time, it´s fun to discuss diffrent aspect of our units and what could be done or not be done with them

[Noght]

I agree that something has to be done about the UP Eternal Guard and the OP WoC and DoC but do we REALLY want to counter cheese by being cheezy ourselves? I pray that GW can come up with a better solution than that.

No but some effort to balance would be nice. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Chaos were always "better" than most Armies due to the fact it's such a giant seller for GW. Get me within like 20% as good and I'd have a greater chance.
On a balance side note: 2 battles vs new Empire with my Core Comp WE list (one in RL, one on UB) both wins for the WE. (You can search for it under Core Comp and Noght if you want to see it.)

Noght

[Ravenlord]

I agree that something has to be done about the UP Eternal Guard and the OP WoC and DoC but do we REALLY want to counter cheese by being cheezy ourselves? I pray that GW can come up with a better solution than that.

Now that´s the statement of a lifetime. Cracked me up
100% Agreement here though. Leave the cheese for the rats.

EDIT: Congratulations on your victories Noght

[Moose123]

Chaos will always be good. They just sell to much to hand the nerf bat to those mean guys in the north. I expect the new WOC book to be a small amount more powerful than ogres. DOC will get nerfed to where WOC are now. The rest of the armies will end up between TK and VC.
Just my thoughts.

I just bought 20 of the GW eternal guard, nice models but they tend to under perform.

[sitaavanu]

a few simple fixes in my mind could make them very viable:

1) stubborn without a highborn (i'm iffy on this one personally because of the proposed other fixes)
2) Heavy armor rather than light and a parry save (maintain fight like spears and xhws)
3) core without a highborn
4) lore of shadows, beast, life, athel loren to all casters

With these bumps you would not need to drop the points, instead of them being cheaper they would simply be worth their points. You hit well and fast but not hard (shadows and beast can change this though). You are durable which makes sense as far as the ranking up is concerned and honestly the models look like they are wearing heavy armor to me, life can turn them into a true anvil. Stubborn I like because it keeps with MMU/MSU style that is unique to WEs in this edition since you won't need TONS of dudes to get steadfast at the same time being able to spam core with 15 man stubborn squads throwing out 21 high WS, I, Str (mind razor) is pretty terrifying or instead of high str one unit could have 4+ regen and another have +4 T both of them regrowing guys. Even without becoming core with the above changes I think you'd start to see them as they could now really compete with Treekin (who, while very good are also in need of a MINOR point reduction and a true ward).

[Moose123]

Give me mindrazor and I would take a 50 man horde of eternal guard