Change of Loyalties

[Christars]

Ho hey, my name is Christars. I'm new here, so greetings to you all.

I am actually a player of the wonderful Warriors of Chaos, and I do rather well with them. In fact, my win record is rather good (bragging? Well, sorry).

I also happen to have this friend who plays a variety of armies, including Ogres, Vampire Counts, Orcs & Goblins and Wood Elves. Recently, I've been playing a good deal against him.

Most of the battles were against his Ogres, who I succesfully defeated a decent amount of the time, but who also inflicted a draw (curse those Leadbelchers) and a rather crushing defeat on me (curse Ironguts with BSB and Tyrant!). As it should be.

However, two of the battles were against his Wood Elves. I regret to say that both battles were complete massacres - the entire Wood Elf army butchered for almost no return.

My friend got rather discouraged by this, and told me he intended to quit Wood Elves, claiming that they've never worked for him and that Ogres were much more fun anyway.hi

In an attempt to dissuade him from giving up what I thought was a rather cool army, I offered to borrow his Wood Elves Army Book, and make a list of them, with him borrowing my Warriors of Chaos Army Book and making a list of his own. My wager was that I'd be able to beat his Warriors list with my Wood Elf list.

So, there you have it. I consider myself a rather decent armymaker - nothing extreme, broken or cheesy, but powerful and often "hard". Like I said, I usually win - not because Warriors are better than everyone else (well, they are, but they aren't better, just better - oh, you get what I mean (or probably not)), but probably rather through my ability to "control the field" - choose which units get into combat where, etc. Using a Sorcerer as a general, rather than a Lord, usually helps this greatly.

However, my friend and I meet again in less that a week, and by then, I'd like to be able to make a list to beat any thinkable Warriors of Chaos list far back into the Norths. Will you aid me?

My first idea revolved around a relatively large amount of missile troops, combined with great mobility. The slogan would be "Shoot every turn, never get charged, don't charge until you are sure you can win". I saw that when my friend fought, he made rather poor use of the Wood Elves mobility, instead more or less standing still, allowing me to choose my charges, or at least choose which of my units would be charged (for example, in the first battle he charged my five-man Chaos Knights unit with a unit of Dryads. Sorry, but there were a lot of broken twigs and not even a dent on my Knights).

For these reasons, I figured I wanted a nice core of Glade Guards. He had them too, but less than fifteen, I think, and they never really made an impact. Also, he never coordinated fire properly, but tried to kill a Warrior here and a Knight there (though usually failing with the Knights, as they had the Mark of Nurgle - -1 to hit!). I figured that about 30 of them, together with a BSB with the Razor Standard (Armor Piercing shots for the unit) ought to be able to at least weaken his lines in crucial places.

To reinforce this idea, some Glade Riders and Waywatchers would be able to help by concentrating fire on the same units, at least enabling me to critically weaken one unit at a time, thus directing the flow of the battle.

However, I realised that this would not be enough, so I added a Highborn, with the Bow of Loren and Arcane Bodkins (possibly more, but I haven't really decided yet). I am currently debating whether he ought to be on a Elven Steed (to accompany the Glade Riders, running in circles, causing havoc, and maybe even charging out of the unit (with a spear, of course), to challenge a unit champion or sorcerer (Chaos must always accept) in a weakened unit to break them, or whether to put him on a Great Eagle, joining some Warhawk Riders and flying about, causing mayhem (maybe even charging like described above, too). I don't really fancy his chances as an Alter - after my show of the effectiveness of Chaos Sorcerers, my friend is sure to have at least one.

In that regard I decided to go for a rather risky strategy. Rather than getting a Wizard of my own (his Lvl 4 Spellsinger didn't really merit the points last time...), I thought I'd snipe his Wizards! So a Noble with the Hunter's Talon seemed necessary. However, that wouldn't be enough (Chaos Sorcerers are hardy! T4 and 4+ save), so even if he would benefit from the BSB's Razor Standard it might be too little. So, I added A Pageant of Shrikes to my Noble. Between them, they ought to be able to at least worry him a lot! Another strategy would be to snipe the unit champion in the unit the Sorcerer is hiding in, then charge and challenge with my Highborn.

I'd probably get a Noble with Hail of Doom Arrows too. Maybe put him in the BSB unit for Armor Piercing? OK, 3 heroes in one unit is a lot, but it ought to attract attention.

Therefore, I settled for some Wardancers as a counterattack unit. Hoping to draw his units forward, desperate to slaughter my Glade Guards, I'd hopefully get to charge and, not so unlikely, wipe a unit which has already been sufficiently depleted (Killing Blow dance for shield-guys, +1A for nonshields). Wardancers are awesome, hitting before Chaos Warriors and hitting on 3+ (except against Nurgle).

All this more or less ends up in a list between 1500 and 2000 points. Please bear with me if anything I said was stupid, inane or downright laughable, but I've never played with Wood Elves and only against them twice.

I rely on your aid.

Yours truly,

Christars.

[Plexi]

As a player who has been up against WoC more times than I care to think about (played a tourney last weekend, 2 games vs WoC, 1 vs. demons), I can tell you that the name of the game is armor. Machine gun noble with bodkins is a great idea. I disagree with the idea of not getting a wizard, but you are at a fairly low points level so he can't get all that much either, if you kill his fast it won't be an issue. Our Waywatchers are amazingly over-costed right now, but WoC is the one army where they can actually make their points cost up (especially if he brings some cav). One glade guard unit with the Banner of Eternal Flame will destroy any trolls that he might bring, so it's well worth the 10 points. Wardancers CAN be good against WoC every other turn that you can KB, but I'd still rather have a nice treekin unit. Treekin and treeman are about all that we have as far as decent armor saves that hit hard (arguably wild riders could be tossed in that mix as well). You seem to have a good head on your shoulders about the games mechanics so I think you'll be ok with whatever you try. The important thing to remember is that WE are not a top tier army so winning with them requires finesse. You can win a game in the deployment phase if you go in with a plan and execute it correctly.

[Baardah]

If you go big on gladeguard I'd throw in the rhymers harp with them. And prey he don't take a hellcannon.
The general idea is that msu gladeguard is best. You can always dish out all the shoots at 1 target a time. And you should. With 30 shots at a unit of knights he'll fail those AS eventually. Especially if some of them is AP. I also think WW in units of 10 is the minimum if you count on killing blow. And take an alter. I played WOC once and he singlehandedly broke a unit of knights when his cocharger failed the feartest. That was after he had taken out a sorceror the turn before with the HoDA

[peterhof]

In an attempt to dissuade him from giving up what I thought was a rather cool army, I offered to borrow his Wood Elves Army Book, and make a list of them, with him borrowing my Warriors of Chaos Army Book and making a list of his own. My wager was that I'd be able to beat his Warriors list with my Wood Elf list.

I love you man for just saying this, that's how the game should be played

For the list, your ideas look pretty solid and you've got a good idea of how to play WE.

Armor piercing banner is only good for close combat I'm afraid so no real use for GG, maybe take the always stand and shoot banner for them if you have used the flaming one on another unit.

a life weaver might he handy to have with the higher T spells and some regenning spells especially as soon as you get into combat.

[Christars]

Plexi:

Hmm, I see your point about Trolls - they are, to be frank, a pain in the bark. However, I think I'd prefer the Lichebone Pennant (Magic Resistance (1)) on my Glade Guard, as they are woefully unprotected against the ravages of any Wizards he might have.

And I am sure he might have one, because a Lvl 4 Wizard is a perfectly viable General for a 1500 Warriors of Chaos army. I should know, I use a Sorcerer as general in about three out of four battles nowadays.

Also, I think I have a psychological advantage here. You see, my armies (and thus the army that defeated him) consists almost exclusively of Chaos Armour (Warriors, Knights, Chosen, etc.) I usually throw in a couple of Marauders, maybe some Horsemen, and perhaps a Giant or Shaggoth, but Chaos Armour is always the mainstay. Combined with the magic of at least three wizard levels total, they are sure to dictate the field properly. So I expect him to mostly field Chaos Armour. But you did make me worried about eventual Trolls...

Baardah:

I'd love the Harp, but I really can't afford it. And who'd take a Hellcannon against Wood Elves?

I completely concur that the Gladeguard are awesome, dishing out an impressive amount of shots each turn, and Armour Piercing will make sure the Knights get only a 3+ save on close range (so even a stand and shoot might seriosuly prove dangerous for them!).

However, I fear to take an Alter. Sorcerers... well, I took the Lore of Fire and aptly demonstrated Fireball's power as a "problem solver", torching a pesky unit of Waywatchers. I'd need some serious magic protection, but I need to use 60 points on bow and arrows, and 40 points is just not enough to buy real good protection. Though if he DOES take Lore of Fire, the Dragonhelm (2+ ward against flaming attacks) might work... I'm considering it.


By the way, the Wardancers are not intended to end up in a protracted combat. Rather, they are supposed to pounce on the first unit to reach my lines (this might be any Knights). This unit MUST have been critically wounded, ideally brought down to at least half size (a tall order? Yes. Disciplined fire!). They will then, with rather good probability, actually, cut them apart. Then, they reform and prepare to face any new opponents. If they get bogged, I'll rely on the 4+ ward dance to keep them alive as long as possible, but if necessary, they can be sacrificed. Essentially, they are counter-attack, not attack.

Anyways, I drafted a list earlier, before getting any advice, so I'm just showing it here, then redeciding. It's got no special points limit, just several things I want, and a vague idea of keeping between 1500 and 2000 points. Care to comment on what should stay and what should go?

Lord
Highborn
Spear, Light Armour, Shield
Elven Steed
The Bow of Loren, Arcane Bodkins, A Pageant of Shrikes, Talisman of Protection
Total: 272 points

Hero
Noble
Light Armour
Battle Standard Bearer
Razor Banner
Total: 137 points

Hero
Noble
Light Armour, Shield
The Hunter's Talon
A Lamentation of Despairs (only to be used if I get 6 power dice... but still probably the worst choice in this list. Should I exchange it for some combat weapon to make this unit halfways competent? Armour Piercing in close combat too, after all...)
Total: 129 points

Hero
Noble
Light Armour, Shield
Hail of Doom Arrow
Total: 109 points

Core
27 Glade Guards
Musician, Lord's Archer, Standard Bearer
Lichebone Pennant
Total: 363 points

Core
5 Glade Riders (I don't think I dare more than five. With five, I can keep them in two ranks. With the Highborne, that's six models. So, they can be in two ranks, all get to fire, hooray. Anyways, they aren't really worth it except as meatshields, marchblockers and annoyances - which they do just fine at this size)
Horsemaster, Musician, Standard Bearer (in the strange case I would charge. Maybe I should drop this?)
Total: 156 points

Special
3 Warhawk Riders (I've been hearing bucketloads of bad things about these guys. But three of them, as an annoyance, march blocker, and maybe even a flank charge, could work out? Also, I might mount the Highborne on a Great Eagle, and have him join some of these guys)
Total: 120 points

Special
8 Wardancers
Musician, Bladesinger
Total: 165 points

Rare
5 Waywatchers
Shadow Sentinel (actually worth it, because of Mark of Nurgle, -1 to hit)
Total: 128 points

Rare
5 Waywatchers
Shadow Sentinel
Total: 128 points

Grand Total: 1707 points
Core Total: 519 points
Special Total: 285 points
Rare Total: 256 points
Hero Total: 375 points (which is max at 1500 points, not coincidentally)
Lord Total: 272 points


I also consider making another list, based more on close combat (although no silly frontal charges, of course), with a Spellsinger with either Life or Beasts as Lord.

Anyways, whaddyathink?

PS.

Peterhof: Dang. I figured Razor Banner gave Armor Piercing to the weapons, not the models. Gotta rethink that, then. Also, there really is only space for one Lord. I AM currently debating whether to just make that close-combat army led by a Spellsinger, buffing or healing (depending on lore) my dear Heroes.

And yes, being happy and never sulking is exactly how the game should be played. Keeps your stomach free of ulcers.

[Allendor]

I play both of these armies, in fact I am planning to get my first 8th ed game in Saturday.
I can't decide which army to use, WoC or WE?

I think the Idea of moving and shooting against WoC is probably the only way for WE's to beat them.
But then that is the way I would play against all armies with WE.

WE's do not have CC troops capable of going toe to toe with WoC.
Warriors with hand and shields armour save of 2+ (with halberds 4+ save & you know what happens)
Kights with armour saves of 1+
You above all should know what I mean.

You have some Waywatchers with lethal shot. 2 units of 5.
If I knew for sure that I was playing against WoC I would have as many of these guys as possible.

Glade Guard are OK but what will happen to them when those units get to them in CC?
They will all die. And most of the shots will not penatrate Chaos armour. Lethal shot can.

Wardancers? I don't know. A Treeman couldn't hurt.

If you want to stay mobile think about skirmishers & Fast cav.
Glade riders Warhawk riders Skirmishers can avoid WoC all day.
Not as many shots as GG but they have a chance of surviving if you can stay away from his magic.
A Chaos sorcerer on a disc of Tzeetch would be bad. He can put the hurt on you.

Your Highborn with the BoL & AB should also go on an elven steed.
In the 8th ed an HB on an eagle can not march and shoot so he will only get a 10" move while shooting.
The HB on the steed is considered Fast cav and can march & shoot 19" while joining those GR's.
It's also cheaper in points.
Also drop the Tailsmen shield and pagent of shieks (or give it to somthing else) and get a better ward save like Stone of Crystal mere and the enchanted shield for a better armour save.

Anyways I think it's a great idea that you both are switching armies, that should be fun.
But now I don't know which army to root for. I am in Chaos about this.

[Christars]

I should point out that Warriors with shields get a 3+ save, not a 2+. This is true even in combat - the old hand weapon / shield - bonus has become a 6+ ward save in close combat instead.

I am considering making some changes to this list, since my BSB didn't work like I intended. Firstly, break up the Glade Guard unit into several smaller ones, maybe keep a BSB but kit him out as the sniper rather than getting a magic banner (or getting the horribly overpriced Banner of Ariel for field Magic Resistance (1) - doubt it is worth it). Second, remember that only Fast Cavalry can march and fire, so yes, Elven Steed time. Dang, I really loved the "Fire-Proof" Alter Highborn I was planning.

Also, more Waywatchers, hm? I can't push the sizes to more than seven and eight, respectively, while keeping to 1500 points restrictions. And I'd only get one Shadow Sentinel. Still, I might do that. Bigger units means it's more likely he'd be distracted and turn to face me or otherwise muck up his plans.

Also, I both agree and disagree that Wood Elves cannot stand up to Warriors of Chaos in close combat. Sure, a fair fight is NOT going to be a... well, fair fight. But the Elves must instead rely on baiting and drawing, forcing a flank (or maybe, though this may be dangerous, a rear) charge. Also, Wardancers are supreme - lots of attacks, good dances (Killing Blow for shieldbearers) and, crucially, I6, one point above the Chaos Warriors' I5. Like I said, a fair fight WILL be lost. But a really unfair one, when you pounce on a flank or a depleted unit - well, that's different.

Also, please do root for Chaos. I do too, but I WILL CRUSH THEM regardless. My friend's Wood Elfy pointy eary T3 blimey future is at stake!

Edit: Never mind what I said about the Alter Highborn, he's a skirmisher so of course he can march and fire. Now he's back on my list again...

[Allendor]

I was making some edits to the HB paragraph while you where posting your reply, so check them out.

Second, remember that only Fast Cavalry can march and fire, so yes, Elven Steed time. Dang, I really loved the "Fire-Proof" Alter Highborn I was planning.

Also, more Waywatchers, hm? I can't push the sizes to more than seven and eight, respectively, while keeping to 1500 points restrictions. And I'd only get one Shadow Sentinel. Still, I might do that. Bigger units means it's more likely he'd be distracted and turn to face me or otherwise muck up his plans.

Yes that's the Idea, turn those slow moving, wheeling, rank and file units around and get them going in any direction YOU want. Do not engage the heavy armoured units shoot them with Lethal shot and Arcane Bodkins. Or better yet lure them into bad woods if you can. They are useless unless they get into CC.

I played against DoC with WE's and he never got quite out of his deoployment area. But I had a dragonlord he had to contend with.

[Christars]

You are completely right, I plan on winning by shooting him (confession: Since I play Warriors of Chaos in Fantasy and Tyranids in 40K and BFG, I'm rather entranced by the possibility of using long range as my mainstay!), and by having him where he doesn't want to be.

Also, how many points did you play for you to be able to use a Forest Dragon? Or was this 7th Edition?

Let's see, I'm remaking the army list. Here goes.

Lord
Highborn
Light Armour, Shield, Additional Hand Weapon
Alter Kindred
The Bow of Loren, Arcane Bodkins, Dragonhelm (+1 to Armour Save, 2+ Ward against Flaming Attacks - to protect him from sniping Sorcerers), A Muster of Malevolents, Luckstone (can re-roll one armour save. Hey, I had 5 points)
Total: 292 points

Hero
Noble
Light Armour
Battle Standard Bearer
Elven Steed
The Hunter's Talon, A Pageant of Shrikes
Total: 139 points

Hero
Noble
Waywatcher Kindred
Army General (he's the only viable character left!)
Hail of Doom Arrow
Total: 140 points

Core
10 Glade Guards
Musician, Lord's Archer
Total: 132 points

Core
10 Glade Guards
Musician, Lord's Archer
Total: 132 points

Core
5 Glade Riders
Horsemaster, Musician
Total: 138 points

Core
5 Glade Riders
Horsemaster, Musician
Total: 138 points

Special
3 Warhawk Riders
Total: 120 points

Special
8 Wardancers
Musician, Bladesinger
Total: 165 points

Rare
8 Waywatchers
Shadow Sentinel
Total: 200 points

Rare
7 Waywatchers
Total: 168 points

Grand Total: 1764 points
Core Total: 540 points
Special Total: 285 points
Rare Total: 368 points
Hero Total: 279 points
Lord Total: 292 points


This list is getting closer and closer to being viable. However, I think we'll end up going at 1500 points, so any idea of what I need and, just as importantly, don't need, will be greatly appreciated.

Also, I'd like to thank all those who have contributed so far. Although I haven't actually followed every advice, they gave food for thought, and still do. I might still end up using a list completely different from this one - but like I said, I fell in love with shooting!

[Allendor]

The dragonlord list was 7th ed 2500 points.
You can field a dragon at whatever the cost in points for the dragonlords build x 4.
Somewhere around 2300 points min.

I am still looking at your HB build and I am not sure the Alter can march and shoot.
So again I say HB on steed. That also will give hin a 6+ save for the mount.
He can also join a GR unit for some "Look out sir"

You might also consider the Hail of Doom arrow on one of your Nobles. It's one use but packs a punch.
Especially if he fields any light troops or fast cav with throwing weapons. They can hurt you as well.

I would also suggest a spellsinger also on a steed to help with some magic defense (Give him the HoDA)
I did use a lot of treesinging in the 7th but I don't think you will get many Forests in the 8th to move around in front of the enemy. (That used to be a lot of fun) But you will have this to use on your freewood with the singer.

[Forest Primeval]

Edit: Never mind what I said about the Alter Highborn, he's a skirmisher so of course he can march and fire. Now he's back on my list again...

I am still looking at your HB build and I am not sure the Alter can march and shoot.

Allendor is correct, I'm afraid. Lone characters are no longer considered skirmishers, so he cannot march and shoot. If he joins a unit of skirmishers he can, but since he can't join units as an Alter... No, those days are over...

[Christars]

Glah. Lone characters lose skirmish? That's the most annoying rule change I've seen in a bit. Gleh, mesa will haves to fields him with Glade Riders.

Also, I do have a Noble with Hail of Doom Arrow. It's the Waywatcher one. I figured that'd work - he'd get nice and close to those Nurgle troops, unleash hell, then keep firing with killing blow thereafter ('cause else he wouldn't really be much good afterwards).

Hm. I still cannot find place for a Spellsinger. The problem is, all with me wanting to shoot things up, the Highborn is a must, regardless of whether he's on steed or runnin' aroun' wild. Also, the "Sniper" Noble appears a decent choice, especially since he is my BSB too. And I gotta have a Noble with Hail of Doom Arrow too... but then suddenly this ugly thing called "points limit" rears its head.

Seriously, though, should I skip one of the Nobles for a Spellsinger? Giving her Hail of Doom Arrow would be tempting, I admit, although the poor dear's "only" got BS4. I could also add a Sceptre of Stability (One Use, add +D6 to a single dispel attempt) for some added magical defence, or a Channeling Staff for slightly better competitiveness (getting +1 to both power dice and dispel dice channeling).

So, if I were to revise my characters, I'd get something like this:

Lord
Highborn
Army General
Elven Steed
Light Armour, Shield, Spear
Bow of Loren, Arcane Bodkins, A Muster of Malevolents / A Befuddlement of Mischiefs (I can't decide, help me!), Talisman of Protection
Total: 272 points

Hero
Noble
Battle Standard Bearer
Elven Steed
Light Armour
The Hunter's Talon, A Pageant of Shrikes
Total: 139 points

Hero
Spellsinger
Level 2 Wizard
Elven Steed
Hail of Doom Arrow, Sceptre of Stability
Total: 187 points


I seem to lean towards including at least three different Glade Riders units. Not only are they really manouvrable, but when each of them carry a character like this, one sniping down Sorcerers, one killing armour with impunity and one adding to the mix by casting and dispelling magic, they ought to attract attention, making it easier for me to control my opponents actions.

Hm, this could really work.

[The Virgin Forest]

Lord
Highborn
Army General
Elven Steed
Light Armour, Shield, Spear
Bow of Loren, Arcane Bodkins, A Muster of Malevolents / A Befuddlement of Mischiefs (I can't decide, help me!), Talisman of Protection
Total: 272 points

Forget the spites and give him protection. Glamourweave ward, Alter kindred - stay within Look out, Sir! range. And don't expect him to kill more than one knight per turn and never make his points back (S3 is a ******) - that is if you're lucky, and he actually wastes points on knights.

LordHero
Noble
Battle Standard Bearer
Elven Steed
Light Armour
The Hunter's Talon, A Pageant of Shrikes
Total: 139 points

What do you need a BSB for? You have hardly any CC elements in the army, and the rest has pretty high Ld - and I really doubt, you'll have to take a lot of panic tests vs. WoC

LordHero
Spellsinger
Level 2 Wizard
Elven Steed
Hail of Doom Arrow, Sceptre of Stability
Total: 187 points

This one is acceptable. I'd consider the Calaingors Staff though, as woods have become more commonplace, and a single Lvl 2 could potentially get to cast it 6 times/turn.

-

You're wasting your points on characters really. They need to be able to do something the rest of the army can't to justify their points cost.

[Christars]

Indeed.

The Highborn will not, as you correctly point out, "earn his points back". And there remains a quite large possibility that the Noble won't either.

But they do still have important roles.

The Highborn will be my most important "blunter". Essentially, where I see a threat, I'll pour fire on it - and the unit which always poses a threat, from turn 1, is the Knights. And, earn back his points or no by killing is one thing, but consider this: If a normally "killer" unit of 5 Chaos Knights fail to make an impact since the Highborn unhorsed two or three of them, then that unit is his win. Also, he can work well at storming in and challenging a Chaos Sorcerer (remember that Chaos cannot decline challenges). I'm considering dropping the Spite and the Talisman to get the Armour of Fortune and a Luckstone (wow, a Wood Elf with a 3+ armour save? Pinch me!)

As for being an Alter, that idea kinda disappeared when it was made clear that lone characters are not skirmishers any longer and so cannot march and fire.

The Noble is a sniper, originally intended to compensate for my lack of anti-magic but really being quite nice after all. It could also, depending on the situation, be used the other way, sniping unit champions so the Highborn can challenge the Sorcerer without interference. The BSB was a relatively simple deal - 15 points for re-rolls. Why not, he's not meant for combat or to get shot at either. Also, I might have to take a few tests after all, what with Chaos Sorcerers (I'd never leave home without one, a Lord whenever possible). And failing even one could mess up my battle plan big-time.

And Calaingor's Stave comes in at 25 points, while Hail of Doom Arrows are at 30 points, so that's a no go. Anyways, the Spellsinger was only added after insistent voices demanded I have some magical protection, pointing out that a Spellsinger can take the Hail of Doom Arrows.

Also, I love wasting points on characters. Hey, my motto is "Make a fun list, you whack more skulls if you're smiling." It's worked against any power gamers bragging about their utterly soulless lists unitl now. (I did not mean to imply you were such a person, just pointing out that I'm quite the opposite - although that doesn't make me bad at listmaking, either)

As always, thanks for any and all feedback not including Raptor Jesus (it's true).

[peterhof]

Don't know if it was said, but make your general scout kindred, nothing stops him from still joining WW and you can even give him some extra protection.
As the WW special deployment rule has been changed (check the WE faq if you haven't already)

The highborn beeing an Alter isn't a problem I think, ok you'll need to see where you place him, but on 30ft range he will still be hitting on 2's!
He will also get 1 more attack that he can use, so that's 1 more arrow.
Only reason I see you take the steed is for better placement, but even then I think 9" should be more than enough especially if you stick at range ( don't forget you can mesure everything you want whenever you want)

[Christars]

Hmm, yes, this kindred thing is rather difficult.

I'd like at least one Scout / Waywatcher-kindred - and with a magical bow, it would have to be Scout. I could easily place him into the 7-strong Waywatcher unit. And yes, I know their rules have been changed. It's like normal scouts except they are harder to shoot or something, right? Which really doesn't help against Chaos.

That could actually be a big problem for my Waywatchers. Deploy 12" from Knights, then Knights march 14", so distance is 26". Even with a march-then-shoot, the distance would be 16" - just at long-range. Agh. Don't even get to march block the buggers. This is, of course, if he gets first turn - which there is a 50% chance that he will.

Which means, the Waywatchers would probably have to find some other poor bastards to bug (Warrior units nesting Sorcerers seems a good choice). So putting a Lord with them forces the entire unit to shoot at the Knights, heavily reducing their effectivity. And no, I'm not considering NOT shooting the Knights. They absolutely have to die, as they are mobile enough to become a regular pain in the twig, and far too durable to reliably be shot by Glade Guards.

And, of course, there's the eternal debate in my mind: Alter Highborn or Elven Steed Highborn? I just can't seem to decide, but I must admit to a certain liking of Fast Cavalry. Though the extra attack is awesome, I simply can't afford being caught by an enemy charge - and it's not given that 9" can get me out of harm's way. But, there's no doubting that the Alter is awesome... and you're right, I can safely fire at 30" - unless my opponent is fielding Mark of Nurgle, which he will. Units with Mark of Nurgle are at -1 to be hit by shooting. Seh. Stupid me for having, and overly using, Nurgle Knights.

Agh!

Fun fact:
5 shots, hitting at 3+, averages at 3.333 hits
4 shots, hitting at 2+, averages at... 3.333 hits.

[Joey_Boy]

I'm not sure what your friend will bring but if he is dragging Maruders along you will really want some dryads in there! Your army can shoot, but when combat comes your done for. And since you need combat to kill off entire units you will need some fighting units in there as well. I'v found that a lvl1/2 mage with the item that allows multiple treesinging is ace! Pushing forests in front of his ranked units will take there steadfast away and alow any of your combat units to break them. The Bodkin higeborn is a must have agains his knights unless your running a treeman and a lvl3/4(beast or life both have merits depending on your build).

This is what I'd run in 1500p against Chaos, Bret's or any other list with solid AS elites and un-expensive bulk units of infantry. You get good Armour busting with the lord and treeman. Dryads will take on the bulk infantry while Glade Guards shoot up enemy units. Wardancers go for the counter charge against anything that gets stuck on the dryads they can also deal with heavy armor units using the KB dance. The eagle is there to block an enemy unit when you really need some room to fight something else and will keep it out of the game for one turn.

Lord:
1 Alter Highborn, GW, La, Bow of Loren, Arcane Bodkins, Dragonhelm, Stone of Rebirth. 289.0 Pts

Heros:
1 Noble, BSB, Armour of Silvered Steel. 135.0 Pts
1 Spellsinger, General, lvl1, Calaingor's Stave. 115.0 Pts

Core:
8 Dryads. 96.0 Pts
8 Dryads. 96.0 Pts
10 Glade Guard, Musician, Banner of the Eternal Flame. 148.0 Pts
10 Glade Guard, Musician, Banner. 138.0 Pts

Special:
7 Wardancers, Champ, Musician. 147.0 Pts

Rare:
1 Great Eagle 50.0 Pts
1 Treeman 285.0 Pts

/Johan R

[Christars]

I see the merit in your words. However, the lists we have made are rather radically different. Your list relies on punishing him for not being close enough to you - and then you launch the perfect counterattack when he hurries into range.

Indeed, that might be a highly efficient tactic.

However, I have some objections. Firstly, the Spellsinger was never intended as an actual part of the force, but got drafted in in an attempt to both have Hail of Doom Arrows and magical protection in one Hero choice. Treesinging might be great - but, to be honest, what (admittedly little) I've seen of it was utterly unimpressive. That's not to say it can't work - but remember, I have no experience whatsoever with playing Wood Elves, and I think moving forests about might just be a tad much for me.

The second objection might sound stupid, but I don't really feel like making a close combat army. I've been playing Warriors of Chaos until now, hey? I can make slashy lists as much as I want with my own army, so I really wanted to go for some shooty awesome.

Also, the main importance of the list is not becoming static - I think I'll squeeze out some of the Glade Guards and in some more Glade Riders. Glade Riders are a pain for Chaos Warriors to face; in fact, many armies wince the moment I take out my five-strong Marauder Horsemen unit, and Wood Elves can do much better.

The idea is, really, that I don't need to "win". I only need to get rid of any elements that could chase down my fast troopers - so my first targets will be Knights, Horsemen and Sorcerers. I am confident that with some ingenuity, and quite possibly the callous sacrifice of one or two cheap units, I can blunt his first assault, then spend the remaining three or four turns slowly whittling down a unit for victory points, never letting him charge (ok, the Glade Guards may be doomed, but a) they are cheap and b) that means the enemy will be utterly unable to concentrate on other threats)

Eh, just hope I don't roll Watchtower...

Also, I've heard some good things about the Banner of Eternal Flame. I might well be tempted to take it on one of the Glade Guards, if there are points to spare.

[Eleven]

I would play with a Lv.4 Weaver in a group of 6-7 scouts. He will never catch this unit and you will have great magic defense. Also, everyone is considering how to get the armoursave to 3+... why not just ignore it completely with the dwellers below? The Life spells are amazing, especially against a close combat army such as the WoC. Drop the BSB and a Machine Gun Lord for the Lv.4. Lots of MSU Glade Guard and some Treemen (but watch out for that item that dishes out a lot of lowstrength magic shots with no armoursave aloud, they cause massive damage to Treemen). With a life weaver, decent shooting and a couple tough units to tie down and kill anything that actually makes it to your troops you should have a good time.

[Christars]

Huamh.

I also wanted a Spellweaver, but in the end, I just fell, schpladunk, for the Highborn.

Also, the Dwellers Below is no miracle spell. First of all, you need to get it (highly probable, but never granted), then you need to cast it (with a serious risk of failure here) and lastly it musn't be dispelled (which often happens when a great spell is bursting forth). And it forces Strength tests, so Warriors fail on 5+. I don't expect to see units of more than 15 Warriors, so that's 5 dead Warriors, if the unit was already full, and the spell worked. As for Knight, well, it's just not reliable enough. That's not to say the Spellweaver is bad, in fact, I really want one. But I'd need a very good argument to get rid of my dear machinegun armorkiller.

Also, how do you get'er with the Scouts? Spellweavers cannot, as far as I am aware (which isn't far, really), Scout themselves, or become Scout Kindred.

And I agree that with a combat heavy army, Life would rock. But, like I said, no Life, no close combat (unless I know I can win).

Though since it has been voiced so many times, by so many great minds, I'll do this: When I feel up for it, I'll write two lists. One like the one I originally wanted, and one with a Lvl 4 Spellweaver and lots of combat. I'll see from there which one I want. But, like I said, my usual lack of shooting really inclines me to go all bowy.

Stupid question, but what does MSU stand for? Musician, Standard, Unit Champion?

And what sort of Magic Item are you talking about? It doesn't ring any bells.

[peterhof]

MSU= multiple small units.

As for the waywatchers, you deploy them at the end of deployment, that makes me think you should be able to set up in the knights's flanks, if they come after the WW they'll be totally out of place so that's great for the rest of your army.

About the highborn I think his BS is 7, no? so that means a 2+ at long range as well

If the marke of nurgle gives -1 to hit your fast cav highborn will also be hitting on 3's and not on 2's so Alter is still more viable.

If you take one, don't give him a GW, it was good in previous but suicidal in this edition.
Better give him an extra handweapon and a strength pot if you plan on getting him into battle.

[Eleven]

Ignoring miscasts on 2+ I have never had to roll. I aim for irresistable force when casting. You just place the scouts as normal, behind your own lines.

The enemy will recieve -4 to shoot at them most of the time, and if you move them every turn they will never see close combat.

Why can't you go all bowy and close combat effective at the same time? As long as you're not silly enough to invest in EG there isn't much standin in your way of taking some treekin or a treeman. After all the shooting a buffed Treeman will destroy most any stragglers.

MSU is minimum size unit.

I'm honestly not sure, but both his heroes were able to dish out 2d6 (may have been 2 artillery dice) S1 shots at 12" which negated armour saves. Since they were magical I was not able to use my Ward save either. There were always a few 6's so I actually had to run away from both hereos with my Treemen... which hurt me deeply. Extremely overpowered item against Wood Elves IMO. It will lay waste to any of our units. I still won the game but it was very close at times.

[Christars]

About the missiles: Ok, I know what happened (silly me who forgot), it was the Bloodcurdling Roar Daemonic Gift; 2D6 S1 hits, 12", no armour saves, cannot be used to Stand & Shoot.

And here's the thing: Daemonic Gifts are kinda like Spites. So, yeah - each may only be chosen once per army. Tell your friend so.

I might consider adding a Treeman to the mix for sheer hilarity. But I'm already pushing points a bit.

Tell you what. I'll convince my friend, through means fair (yeah right) or foul (yep) to play two battles with me. Then I get to demonstrate to him that Wood Elves can make a competent shooty force as well as a great combat force.

So I will be needing both those lists.

Meh, I all-nighted, so my brain is kinda mush. It's kinda hard to think about anything specific, but I'll draft both army lists.

Maybe I should make them into two new, separate threads, in the The Call of the Hunt section? That way, I could ask specifically about how to improve one list rather than general tips as to how to win. Sounds good?

[Joey_Boy]

Okey Christars I get where your coming from =)

It's my opinion that WE work best as a combined arms style force in this edition. Also using the terrain and tree-singing is key to making the army work for me. But thats just me and everyone should find there own style and what works for them, net-listing just makes for bad players and I respect your way of doing this

/Johan R

[peterhof]

Myself I find treesinging very situational, I much rather have fury of the forest or another spell