Dealing with a Hellcannon

[laribold]

Other than tailoring a character to specifically deal with one (e.g. Spirit Sword Alter Highborn or similar), I was wondering what tools and/or tactics people have found useful for dealing with a Hellcannon?

It's T6, with a 4+ armour save and is unbreakable. I have had some Treekin take it down once before, but I may have been a bit fortunate there and the reliability of getting some TK into position to charge the Hellcannon isn't something to wholly rely on.

So, any ideas out there?

[Furion]

Are the Hellcannon's attacks flaming or am I confusing that with something else?

[laribold]

Are the Hellcannon's attacks flaming or am I confusing that with something else?

No flaming or magical attacks for the Hellcannon so the Forest Spirits are safer. But it has its own miscast table that doesn't really bother it much, 1 and 6 means you remove it but it hurts a lot, 2 and 4 kill off crew, 5 makes it charge towards the nearest enemy, 3 makes ALL wizards suffer a Miscast!

The Screaming Skull Catapult has flaming stone thrower attacks. Is that what you were thinking of?

[Ravenlord]

Amber spear, large version.
Alot of shooting (very difficult strategy).
Teleported glass nuke. This has worked really fine for me and I find this to be the most reliable way to deal with 1 or possibly 2 hellcannons, although the glass nuke need to do more in a match than destroy artillery to be usefull, which can be a problem since the hellcannon bites back.

[Furion]

Glass nuke?

[laribold]

Glass nuke?

Presumably something like an (Alter) Highborn with Spirit Sword and Moonstone.

Not much in the way of defence but can obliterate anything it contacts with and is itself unlikely to survive.

It just seems an awful lot of points to risk and what else will this expensive character do if it does survive...

Are our options limited to this/similar 'Magic Item Character Delivery System' OR a boosted Amber Spear? Really, is that all we've got?

[Billthesurly]

Imagine a giant with 4+ armor (and a ward sv if it's Tzeench), thunderstomp, wounds that can be bled off into little, throw-away crew, and you've about got it. Reliably dealt with? No. Treemen have a shot. Treekin can do it and have a better shot if they have Wissan's going. The "glass nuke" can do it but that has to be cobbled up specifically for the task and I don't like doing things with my army that are aimed specifically at one enemy troop type or thing. Make sure it is on a proper base, which is quite large, to ensure max attacks against it. Buffed amber spear has best chance for a clean kill if you can get it off but I believe that the amber spear has a chance of taking down one of the little chaos dwarf crew rather than the gun itself so you have to roll that die too. The clown I regularly play at local tourneys brings two. Oh Joy! I came close once with a hero using a strength potion and Rageth's blades and a hand of Wardancers but it survived with one wound left.

If you can sneak some scouts up close enough you might make it test to NOT CHARGE. If it fails it has to come after you. You run away and it can't shoot. WHY do so many of our tactics involve baiting things to charge us so that they can't charge something else?!?!?!

[Moose123]

We can't reliably deal with it when using an all comers list. It's a similar problem with the ironblaster. The normal warmachine hunters can't deal with it so we need something bigger that usually costs more than the stupid cannon itself. Jsut try to redirect it, the good news is that it's shooting isn't as good against us as it is against other armies because of all the small skirmisher units.

Bill we have to redirect stuff because all the other armies stuff can beat ours in a one on one fight, it's sad but it just has to be that way.

[Ravenlord]

With the glass nuke I actually meant the one invented by Caitsidhe (sorry if mispelled) with wild riders and characters, teleported to an advantageous position. But as I said,the nuke need to do more than that to be useful, pointswise.

As a general rule, when faced with artillery, I ask myself this:
How much of a threat is it really?
-does it need to come down, or atleast be occupied, quickly in a game in order to secure victory?

If so, then I teleport/fly something behind enemy lines to deal with it/delay it as soon as humanly (elvenly) possible.
Wild riders, treekin, characters/eagle characters and wizards can do this. Treemen cannot and thus are ignored for this strategy.

But, if it doesn´t need to come down quickly, let´s say it can wait to round 3 or 4, then I usually ignore it. No need to waste lives... eh points.
If it is a priority then it is, and then it need do be dealt with. If it isn´t, then it isn´t.

[Furion]

Ditto. I usually ignore the Hellcannon when I play against WoC and instead get its usual targets into combat asap so all it has to shoot at are odd units of scouts or glade guard.

[laribold]

Ditto. I usually ignore the Hellcannon when I play against WoC and instead get its usual targets into combat asap so all it has to shoot at are odd units of scouts or glade guard.

And funnily enough, that's exactly what I did last night!

Concentrated on shooting and beating up his Warriors and Marauders, but he did get two separate direct hits, one on my Spellweaver, the other on my BSB. I failed both Look Out, Sir roles and whilst my BSB ended up very dead, I was fortunate to only take 2 wounds on my mage.

Other than that, it killed maybe 6 or so Glade Guard.

So I've kind of answered my own question... Hellcannon's can be ignored for the most part until you are ready to take them on (if you haven't won the game already)

[Billthesurly]

Gentlemen, if your opponent is allowing you to totally ignore his hellcannons, I submit he is "doing it wrong". They should be played as monsters that can shoot. Not as cannons that can charge and fight.

[Ravenlord]

Bill, you are right of course.

[laribold]

Gentlemen, if your opponent is allowing you to totally ignore his hellcannons, I submit he is "doing it wrong". They should be played as monsters that can shoot. Not as cannons that can charge and fight.

If they are 'doing it wrong', I'm sure as hell not going to tell them!

[Moose123]

Yes I agree, it is similar to the cygor except that people use it and it is worth it's points. It is a monster with the added bonus of shooting. It's shooting can be very devastating. But really it should only shoot two or three times in an entire game.

[Dudds]

Glass nuke?

Presumably something like an (Alter) Highborn with Spirit Sword and Moonstone.

Not much in the way of defence but can obliterate anything it contacts with and is itself unlikely to survive.

It just seems an awful lot of points to risk and what else will this expensive character do if it does survive...

Are our options limited to this/similar 'Magic Item Character Delivery System' OR a boosted Amber Spear? Really, is that all we've got?

I believe for monsters and handlers you can use the best available leadership in the unit, which in the case of a Hellcanon is 9 so the Spirit Sword may very well turn round and bite you.

They should be played as monsters that can shoot. Not as cannons that can charge and fight.

In some cases yes but against certain armies you're better off shooting it in conjunction with Pandemonium. As you can only move or shoot it's sometimes more advantageous to go with shooting to try and panic units off the board, particularly if your opponent has poor leadership or superior movement.

To be honest I'm still not familiar enough with Wood Elves to give you any advice on how to deal with it effectively and for a similar points cost. You can't mark it so you won't need to worry about Ward Saves, Amber Spear seems like the best option unless you are confident you can bait it. Sorry I know that's probably not much help.

[sitaavanu]

with 50 shots per turn you will do about 2 wounds a round. It depends on how many archer you are taking obviously but you could at least break it down a bit and make it easy to mop up in combat.

Of course if you are using lore of beast, amber spear is the obvious solution.

[trushot]

Statistics wise, a Treeman that has taken no damage yet fighting the hell cannon in combat is probably the best situation, atleast for when I play WoC. If you're playing someone who likes to use their hell cannons as "monsters who can shoot" then throw a treeman at it if it gets near your lines. The Treeman's higher WS and S allow it to punch through the cannon within a couple combat rounds, if you dont waffle your dice rolls. If im not mistaken, the hellcannon's strength is only 5 but with a toughness of 6. So it has a harder time wounding than the treeman does and with less wounds. True, no one gets a thunderstomp, but thats not a big deal. And if something goes wrong, the treeman can partially rely on his stubborn 8 (10 if general is around) roll to stay around another round or two.

I truly despise hell cannons for the reason that Wood elves can completely out position any WoC infantry, but under fire from one or more hell cannons, our infantry have serious issues getting a good position together for combi charging when your opponent is dropping spirit bombs randomly in your lines.

just my 2 cents

[Uncle Maple Stacks]

....our infantry have serious issues getting a good position together for combi charging when your opponent is dropping spirit bombs randomly in your lines.

just my 2 cents

Man, I wish they were dropping Spirit Bombs...at least then I would know it will take 4, maybe 5 full episodes before its ready to get dropped on me...in the mean time all we have to do is keep the bad guy away from, Goku......wait I think im confused....

[sitaavanu]

....our infantry have serious issues getting a good position together for combi charging when your opponent is dropping spirit bombs randomly in your lines.

just my 2 cents

Man, I wish they were dropping Spirit Bombs...at least then I would know it will take 4, maybe 5 full episodes before its ready to get dropped on me...in the mean time all we have to do is keep the bad guy away from, Goku......wait I think im confused....

....until Freeza decideds to let the planet live for 10 more seconds

[trushot]

Hahah or soul bombs whatever you want to call them. Its described as a mix of souls and magical bombs of some sort in the WoC book.

I do remember goku taking several days of my time to finally throw that thing. ahhh old school dbz, how i miss you.

[Welshy]

I have had a treeman take one out, but it takes a looooonnnngggg time, and we need the treeman for other things. If you have units that you really really need protecting from shooting then do it, but not a great tactic. How many attacks does hellcannon have? could you rear charge it with an eagle, lose combat, flee and force it to pursue because of frenzy? or does it not actually have frenzy??

[Billthesurly]

I think it has a leadership of 4. If you can just get something to within 18" of it, it must check leadership or charge. If it is far from his general's leadership you can lead it around by the nose for a couple of turns. If you are just inside 18" it must roll 12 to reach you. Chances are it will fail and then have to test again and again as you move gradually away - keeping the distance between you and it open. Try to lead it away from the general.

[laribold]

Whilst the Hellcannon itself has a poor leadership (4/5), the Chaos Dwarves that herd it certainly don't... They have a Ld of 9 so you can't rely on leading it anywhere.

I don't think it has frenzy either so it won't be forced to pursue a lone eagle (which probably wouldnt even live long enough to flee as each Chaos Dwarf gets to attack as well as 5 (I think) from the HC.

[Billthesurly]

It seems like that damn cannon get run differently every time I play against it. I don't think the OWNERS know what they're doing with the damn thing much less me.