C&C on "A Forest Awakens"

[Schmeag]

And through that, you are implying that we should be capable of understanding them.

And through that, I am implying that we control whether they can be understood or not.

Either they're arrogant humans and thus are understandable, or they're fey, mystical and alien beings who are not.

Those "mystical" beings have been created by us (as a human race).

You're responding to something I said - who the hell am I supposed to think you're talking to?

Well, the point of these posts should be to provide comments and criticism to Nagathi's story; some of these points would be relevant to him.

you'll need to attach some form of a rating by which you can judge the character in question.

Words don't amount to statistics. You can call her "experienced", but not in numbers.

The problem here (as I see it) is that there always will be a level of "faceless guards".

True.

but your position seems to go towards every elf being named, every elf having an expression, every elf having a different reaction, and so on.

Not that much, and not so you could generalise them as a crowd. Certainly not to the extent that you get an overabundance of character development (Jordan's milking it for all its got, anyway), but not to the extent that you get "faceless" guards. For example, I found it odd for Nagathi to describe the "crowd" as all frightened. Before you decide to respond to this one, I have included an analysis for you below. Appreciate it .

And I'm getting a very strong implication from you that you view hasty decisions as poor ones for those reasons.

And you are correct. Doesn't stop me from making them though.

If it was, then it should have been mentioned. But I have gained the impression that they have been serving Aeliaria for some time now.

I haven't - which could be either poor wording or a miscommunication on either your side or my side.

----------------------------

Right. I'll just go through it and point out the phrases and words that gave me all my impressions:

"[Seretha's] tip of her experienced longbow was barely seen near her side"

One could assume that this means that Seretha is quite experienced as a warrior herself.

Seretha knew this information was important enough to disturb her superior, even if she was busy in deep meditation.

She knew better than to argue about matters like these.

This implies that Seretha knows her commander well - thus they have been together for a while.

With the twisted feelings of both good and bad, Seretha left her general alone.

This (and Aeliaria's admonishment) appears to give Aeliaria and Seretha a mother-daughter relationship.

This feud, this strife, this battle had been raging for many centuries; a never-ending conflict between the sentinels of the forest guardians, and the invading beasts and centigors and other followers of Chaos. This was this army’s foremost duty. The Sacred Sentinels had but one simple mission; to guard the forest and remove any hostile trespassers.

Unless Aeliaria decided to somehow induct several bands into her force, their force has seen quite a bit of battle.

The glade guards sharpened their arrowheads and brushed their feathers. The riding scouts tightened their bows and the wardancers were either stretching and twisting their bodies in unnatural positions or simply meditating and connecting with the gods.

The "crowd" aren't so generalised here. But... Read on.

They all knew this was what they had been sent out to do, and they had trained for centuries for this sacred task.

This belies her force's discipline and training. No raw recruits there for you, although this changes somewhat later.

All of the riders nodded in agreement. They had been a part of Aeliaria’s force for long enough to understand that she always knew best.

Definitely no recruits there.

force fully assembled together with some new recruits

There are new recruits... but only "some". Certainly not enough to justify the "shots of fright" from the "crowd". We can assume that by "fully", Nagathi means the entire force of Sacred Sentinels.

In the complete silence that were, everyone had heard the concern. A shot of fright was sent through everyone’s hearts, but Aeliaria, the Forest Mistress, calmly turned to her force and spoke.

And now we have it. Nagathi mentions "everyone". He also mentions "shot of fright". By "everyone", he has grouped those experienced riders, the wardancers, the glade guard (and so on) and finally "some recruits".

-----------------------

I was saying beforehand that I had a problem with the generalisation of the force. That last bit I included is what has been generalised. I don't ask for detailed individual descriptions; what I do suggest is that the descriptions of the "crowd" should include variance.

I never said it couldn't be the other way around. Where are you getting the impression that I did?

You didn't. But you failed to mention that it could; you said perhaps this, perhaps that - but not perhaps not this, perhaps not that. When you start saying "perhaps" en masse, that's when things start getting out of hand. The thing is, perhaps aliens will come and kill us. Perhaps I will eat breakfast in five years. Perhaps the Sydney Harbour Bridge will become the next terrorist target. But then, perhaps not. That, my friend, is the realm of unsubstantiated philosophy.

You might want to read up on some of the background concerning the Brightwood itself, I think - as it is, the forest isn't entirely destroyed, though the decay is setting in (it's probably where a large majority of misinterpretations are coming from). And given that there is the Wildwood in Athel Loren, I don't really think that "sounds like home" qualifies, since even in Loren itself, there are many varying levels of "happiness" to be found.

This may yet be Nagathi's wording, but he mentioned "or simply a few miles deeper into Loren". Note the word "simply". By saying that, he is implying that there have been no drastic changes in the environment, with a few exceptions. I'm not sure how much of the forest amounts to "a few miles" (if the forest can be measured that way), but his use of "simply" seems to mean that not much untoward has happened to the environment compared to that which they left.

They're only a by-product of the thread, which should really be split off into its own somewhere in OT if any of the admins know how to split posts in the database

I guess so. But those by-products seem to fluctuate dangerously in size at times.

Well, I hope this helps Nagathi, if you bothered to read the post. And you have Eldacar to thank for it. As for you Eldacar, I hope this clears up those misunderstandings rather than compounding them.

[Ithildir Hawk-eye]

This is seriously way off topic. Either get back on topic or this thread will be closed, or possibly split.

-Ithildir Hawk-eye

[Fingol Darkwater]

Just split the thread. Have a "The Forest Awakens comment thread" so Nagathi's story doesn't get cluttered.

[Schmeag]

Just split the thread. Have a "The Forest Awakens comment thread" so Nagathi's story doesn't get cluttered.

Good idea. And I see it has been done.

On the whole though, the "crowd" bit is just a minor part of what actually is a pretty good story.

By the way, is this meant to be for the campaign or for your army?

EDIT: Some of this stuff probably doesn't even belong in the Fluff Section; they'd cover a few such as Asrai Discussion, Non-Asrai Discussion and Off Topic. Oh well.

[Naggie]

This is not really off the topic, but it is kinda cluttering up the story thread. So I split it.

1st: I'm amazed how many new and good replies had come over the last two days Nothing for several months (bar one) and now loads Thanks, or something...

2nd: To clear a few things: Thist story is on a slight backlash. It's still pre-war stuff as the other parts with the in-war stuff hasn't been posted yet (got them written on a paper, but not in digital form yet - working on it).

I had no big intention with the "shot of fright", but it might be a little over-the-top as Shmeag claims. It is very much possible that elves can be so temporarily stunned by something, even though I consider them to be organised, disciplined and hard to frighten on most occasions. Maybe I should tone that part down a little?

3rd: Next part wil be up today/tonigt.

Nagathi
The Sacred Sentinel

[Schmeag]

Maybe I should tone that part down a little?

Maybe. After that bit of discussion though, I think that adding a bit more division as to who is frightened and who is not would tone it down quite suitably. I guess it is ok for the new recruits to feel somewhat frightened (but still not too frightened). And even then, they appear to be in the minority.

Looking forward to reading the next part tonight! ^_^

EDIT: Or in the morning, whenever night is for you.

[Eldacar]

Blending a few quotes together.

And through that, I am implying that we control whether they can be understood or not.

Those "mystical" beings have been created by us (as a human race).

We don't control anything unless there are other people here who write for Black Industries/the Studio (and if they're here, then they keep their mouth shut). We've been told by GW that they're alien beings who cannot be truly understood both from the perspective of a human scholar studying the elves and from the 7th edition BRB objective statement regarding the race. Unless you're living in your own version of the WH world, that's the end of the argument.

Well, the point of these posts should be to provide comments and criticism to Nagathi's story; some of these points would be relevant to him.

Commonly, you'd write "@Nagathi" or "@Eldacar" when saying double things from one post - it's what I do, anyway.

Words don't amount to statistics. You can call her "experienced", but not in numbers.

However, even calling her experienced but not in numbers is still judging/rating the character.

Now, to continue.

----

One could assume that this means that Seretha is quite experienced as a warrior herself.

It doesn't say what she's experienced at. For all the readers know from the statement, she'd be an expert at shooting wooden dummies all day long, which makes her experienced at aiming and shooting, but differs strongly from an actual combat situation.

This implies that Seretha knows her commander well - thus they have been together for a while.

Or that she's simply not going to question the orders of one who has been placed above her.

This (and Aeliaria's admonishment) appears to give Aeliaria and Seretha a mother-daughter relationship.

I don't see it that way - any general who cares about his/her followers could treat them that way. After all, it's better to train a dog with "kindness" than pain.

Unless Aeliaria decided to somehow induct several bands into her force, their force has seen quite a bit of battle.

I always saw Aeliaria as being quite young for an elf, actually, which obviously changes the perspective on how the force may or may not have seen battle (Aeliaria, for example, could have been a part of it for a long time, but only recently ascended to the "top spot" - a theory that holds true for a great number of ages). That being said, it depends on interpretation, though having a "simple mission" doesn't imply that you've been doing it for ages.

The "crowd" aren't so generalised here. But... Read on.

This belies her force's discipline and training. No raw recruits there for you, although this changes somewhat later.

Training <> fighting and killing, though. IMO, you might be confusing the two, or taking "training" to mean that they've already done it - training implies that you're getting ready to do something, not that it's been done.

Definitely no recruits there.

Not there, no. New to her command, maybe. Or maybe not.

There are new recruits... but only "some". Certainly not enough to justify the "shots of fright" from the "crowd". We can assume that by "fully", Nagathi means the entire force of Sacred Sentinels.

And now we have it. Nagathi mentions "everyone". He also mentions "shot of fright". By "everyone", he has grouped those experienced riders, the wardancers, the glade guard (and so on) and finally "some recruits".

I don't really have a problem with it being slightly generalised (referring to the alien point, there's nothing to say that we're necessarily supposed to understand why an elf would feel fear - and IMO, we shouldn't anyway). And, of course, unless you want to do a Jordan and milk it, generalisation is occasionally a good thing.

---

I don't ask for detailed individual descriptions; what I do suggest is that the descriptions of the "crowd" should include variance.

If my buddies on the flank were about to collapse and run, I don't know if I'd feel fear or not (I'm no elf), but there'd be some form of negative reaction (unlike the Longbeards of the Dwarfs, who would just grumble at "Beardlings these days").

You didn't. But you failed to mention that it could; you said perhaps this, perhaps that - but not perhaps not this, perhaps not that.

Er... it was implied. If I failed to spell it out properly, then tell me so, don't beat around the bush (bluntly speaking).

if the forest can be measured that way

It can't. And Athel Loren can change very rapidly over the course of a few miles.

[Naggie]

Chapter VII is now up. Although a bit short and perhaps boring, I felt I had to write it to actually bind my armylist to the fluff, and to bind the actual happenings of the Twilight War into the fluff. The next part will come soon (Expect more action in there )


Nagathi
The Sacred Sentinel

[Schmeag]

Commonly, you'd write "@Nagathi" or "@Eldacar" when saying double things from one post - it's what I do, anyway.

If they're addressed to both in one way or another?

However, even calling her experienced but not in numbers is still judging/rating the character

Exactly. Calling her experienced, however, is not assigning her a statistic, however.

It doesn't say what she's experienced at. For all the readers know from the statement, she'd be an expert at shooting wooden dummies all day long, which makes her experienced at aiming and shooting, but differs strongly from an actual combat situation.

You don't call a longbow (or a fighter) experienced at shooting dummies - even recruits would be relatively experienced in this case. Generally, that leaves me with the impression that the longbow has seen quite a lot (and no, the bow hasn't just found its way into Seretha's hands). In any case, Nagathi would have obviously reworded it if she had not many battles. It was just a fancy way of saying "Seretha was an experienced fighter".

Or that she's simply not going to question the orders of one who has been placed above her.

Or she knows the ways of her commander? Not all commanders are the same. Or... Perhaps... Maybe... Keep 'em coming. After all, this is mostly based on opinion.

I don't see it that way - any general who cares about his/her followers could treat them that way. After all, it's better to train a dog with "kindness" than pain.

That's not kindness. That's rather like the meek-daughter-servant type up against the stern mother.

I always saw Aeliaria as being quite young for an elf, actually, which obviously changes the perspective on how the force may or may not have seen battle

That doesn't change the fact that she managed to quell the fears of others. Not only that, Nagathi has painted her as an experienced general. In the council, Aeliaria is the one that gets the approval of the older generals. She is also chosen to be the one to lead one of the four forces. Here and there in the story, Nagathi includes some things here or there that make it seem that she is experienced. I don't dispute she is young, but rather I am saying that she is experienced.

In any case, whether she is experienced or not, that doesn't change the experience of the rest of the army.

training implies that you're getting ready to do something, not that it's been done.

They know how to prepare for an upcoming battle. Raw recruits on their first battle would be a bit shaky about that.

New to her command, maybe.

If it was her first battle, it would have been mentioned. First battles tend to be high on the "importance" list.

And, of course, unless you want to do a Jordan and milk it, generalisation is occasionally a good thing.

Well, unless you want to bunch everyone in with the minority (raw recruits) and say that they are all scared, then I'd say that that sort of generalisation is stretching the limit. In fact come to think of it, it isn't a generalisation because the new recruits are in the minority.

there's nothing to say that we're necessarily supposed to understand why an elf would feel fear

Fear is an animalistic emotion and generally speaking, comes about through the need of "self-preservation". Hence, for an elf to feel fear, they would need to feel "self-preservation", the driving force of humans. But that's saying that elves are like humans. We can't have that! -_-

So, I mentioned quite a while before that elves feel human emotions such as fear (as Nagathi's story says anyway). If you equate fear with elves, then you equate elves with animals such as humans. If you want to make elves unable to be understood, give all their emotions different terms. Better still, burn every single piece of fiction that uses the elven point of view (there goes my fluff <_< ).

We don't control anything unless there are other people here who write for Black Industries/the Studio (and if they're here, then they keep their mouth shut).

The entire elvish idea was dreamt up by the human race, or by human understanding. Games Workshop didn't come up with it by themselves, although they've embellished the idea a bit. However, the elves beforehand were understood by humans - and despite the fact that GW say that their elves cannot be understood, they still write fiction on them that portray their emotions and their resulting actions. The consequence of such is understanding.

We've been told by GW that they're alien beings who cannot be truly understood both from the perspective of a human scholar studying the elves and from the 7th edition BRB objective statement regarding the race.

Both are also from the perspective of humans in the Warhammer World. If you can't understand elves, you can't "understand" any of the other races too.

Anyway, why write about elves if they cannot be understood? Saying that you cannot understand an elf is basically like voiding the entire "from-the-elf-perspective" type of fiction. We know that they are capable of feeling hatred, for one thing - a human emotion (High Elves and Dark Elves). When we try to understand things, we attach a "recognition sequence" to it. For example, science is a human creation - why? Because it's our interpretation of the world; same with religion, philosophy and art. Elves are a human interpretation - if we cannot understand it for all eternity, why bother discussing it?

but there'd be some form of negative reaction

That's claiming to be an elf (as you just mentioned), ain't it? As I said, you can't say that elves cannot be understood (and if you can, then GW have been contradicting themselves) and then assume that "there'd be some form of negative reaction". They should simply say that they cannot be understood and prohibit any official novels on GW elves, taking out all that fluff from the elven perspective and whatnot from the army books. Simply by reading that sort of stuff, you gain an idea of their emotions and thoughts and essentially, understanding.

Er... it was implied.

And I'm sure it was implied, but that would have contradicted your point. Well, you can say "perhaps...", but it doesn't contribute much to the discussion, as I could say "perhaps not...". But really, that pretty much voids this conversation anyway. Oh well.

It can't. And Athel Loren can change very rapidly over the course of a few miles.

By "simply", Nagathi is saying that nothing untoward has occurred in the environment around us.

[Eldacar]

If they're addressed to both in one way or another?

I clarify the ways that they're being addressed. Not saying that you need to, but it helps in understanding both sides.

Exactly. Calling her experienced, however, is not assigning her a statistic, however.

A rating is a rating. It's like an RPG without numbers as opposed to an RPG with numbers - the former may allow for more freedom than the latter, but it still has to fall within guidelines.

You don't call a longbow (or a fighter) experienced at shooting dummies - even recruits would be relatively experienced in this case. Generally, that leaves me with the impression that the longbow has seen quite a lot (and no, the bow hasn't just found its way into Seretha's hands). In any case, Nagathi would have obviously reworded it if she had not many battles. It was just a fancy way of saying "Seretha was an experienced fighter".

You don't. Just a clarification.

Or she knows the ways of her commander? Not all commanders are the same.

Not all are incompetent enough that a soldier/lieutenant can automatically question them either, to go in a different direction.

That's not kindness. That's rather like the meek-daughter-servant type up against the stern mother.

Doesn't look like it to me, but then, so far, you've interpreted it all differently than I did anyway.

That doesn't change the fact that she managed to quell the fears of others. Not only that, Nagathi has painted her as an experienced general. In the council, Aeliaria is the one that gets the approval of the older generals. She is also chosen to be the one to lead one of the four forces. Here and there in the story, Nagathi includes some things here or there that make it seem that she is experienced. I don't dispute she is young, but rather I am saying that she is experienced.

Plenty of people are able to quell fears and inspire courage through words - it doesn't seem all that out of place.

In any case, whether she is experienced or not, that doesn't change the experience of the rest of the army.

That came out of the left field.

They know how to prepare for an upcoming battle. Raw recruits on their first battle would be a bit shaky about that.

You're using a lot of "would" and "should", you know. And for the record, it isn't the warm-ups that shake you, it's the beginning of the battle. To choose an example, if I were to go to a martial arts grading (plenty of people on these boards do it, I would assume), then it isn't the preliminary stretches or the fitness/aerobics that will be shaky. It's actually performing moves under stress that you know you're being graded on, and it's those things that are going to be the more difficult because of the pressure.

If it was her first battle, it would have been mentioned. First battles tend to be high on the "importance" list.

More of this "would" here. And it doesn't need to be high on the list of every single person - it's just your perception that it does.

Well, unless you want to bunch everyone in with the minority (raw recruits) and say that they are all scared, then I'd say that that sort of generalisation is stretching the limit. In fact come to think of it, it isn't a generalisation because the new recruits are in the minority.

IMO, you've failed to adequately prove that statement.

But that's saying that elves are like humans. We can't have that!

Because they aren't.

The entire elvish idea was dreamt up by the human race, or by human understanding. Games Workshop didn't come up with it by themselves, although they've embellished the idea a bit. However, the elves beforehand were understood by humans - and despite the fact that GW say that their elves cannot be understood, they still write fiction on them that portray their emotions and their resulting actions. The consequence of such is understanding.

I've already said that the perceptions of elves espoused in BL books are flawed and more than a little bit imperfect. And your argument that because they were dreamed up by humans equates to automatic understanding is directly in contrast with what we've been told happens in this fantasy world. Elves are alien. End of story - continuing to argue that they are nothing more than arrogant humans means you're living in your own version of the fantasy world, which has no place in a discussion about official background.

Both are also from the perspective of humans in the Warhammer World. If you can't understand elves, you can't "understand" any of the other races too.

Where did I say that we can? Dwarfs are closer to being understood (Felix Jaeger muses on the strange Dwarfen devotion to grudges, the Slayer Oath and so on in one of the BL books, and whether or not humans would be able to fully understand it and potentially adopt the custom), yes. That doesn't mean humans completely understand them, though. And objective word-of-god statements are by definition not subjective, too.

Anyway, why write about elves if they cannot be understood?

Because of the Rule of Cool. I never said that anything I've written about them is perfect, for example - it's as flawed as anything else, really. However, I write about them because I like the concept of alien beings that are completely impossible to understand by a human. And the fact that they're magically attuned to the Winds, of course. Magic is one of the main reasons I like Fantasy more than historical wargames.

Saying that you cannot understand an elf is basically like voiding the entire "from-the-elf-perspective" type of fiction.

Not really. It makes it flawed, but it doesn't void it entirely. It just spawns interesting discussions around the place.

Elves are a human interpretation - if we cannot understand it for all eternity, why bother discussing it?

Why are we discussing it?

That's claiming to be an elf (as you just mentioned), ain't it?

Elves suffer from the curse of Aenarion - it's common knowledge, so it isn't assuming anything.

Simply by reading that sort of stuff, you gain an idea of their emotions and thoughts and essentially, understanding.

No, you gain a human understanding of their history, not a human understanding of an elven psyche. And if previous posts I made haven't been clear enough, I'll say it again: Unthwe Windrider and Furion both suck when it comes to "fluff and perspective".

Well, you can say "perhaps...", but it doesn't contribute much to the discussion, as I could say "perhaps not...".

Perhaps.

By "simply", Nagathi is saying that nothing untoward has occurred in the environment around us.

Not to me.

[Schmeag]

A rating is a rating. It's like an RPG without numbers as opposed to an RPG with numbers - the former may allow for more freedom than the latter, but it still has to fall within guidelines.

A rating with words amounts to a description. A rating with numbers amounts to a statistic. Aeliaria is described and doesn't have a statistic assigned to her. Statistics are part of the gaming world, not the background world.

You don't. Just a clarification.

Noted.

Not all are incompetent enough that a soldier/lieutenant can automatically question them either, to go in a different direction.

Aeliaria knew that if Seretha interrupted her, it would have to be important. And you'll probably disagree, but I already get your point.

Doesn't look like it to me, but then, so far, you've interpreted it all differently than I did anyway.

Rather.

Plenty of people are able to quell fears and inspire courage through words - it doesn't seem all that out of place.

One would need the oratory skills to do so. Or the authoritative presence. This is my understanding of people. But seeing as it's your way understanding of people, then so be it.

That came out of the left field.

How so? Explain and then perhaps I might agree, rather than question it.

You're using a lot of "would" and "should", you know. And for the record, it isn't the warm-ups that shake you, it's the beginning of the battle. To choose an example, if I were to go to a martial arts grading (plenty of people on these boards do it, I would assume), then it isn't the preliminary stretches or the fitness/aerobics that will be shaky. It's actually performing moves under stress that you know you're being graded on, and it's those things that are going to be the more difficult because of the pressure.

They are preparing for an oncoming battle. The pressure is already sinking in. My using of "would" and "should" - in fact, my entire argument - is on par with your argument. You may not use the words, but the fact is that you're stating your opinion and I am stating mine. Word play doesn't help.

More of this "would" here. And it doesn't need to be high on the list of every single person - it's just your perception that it does.

Obviously, it's your perception that it doesn't. And of course it doesn't need to be. But stories are about giving impressions, and those are the impressions are received. Why don't you go and tell Nagathi what you thought about it, rather than refuting what I thought about it?

IMO, you've failed to adequately prove that statement.

Your opinion. And proof, it seems, is a far of notion. I was saying that the raw recruits are in the minority. Note that Nagathi mentions them as "some recruits" in comparison to the experienced riders, the wardancers and the glade guard, yet categorises them all as frightened. My suggestion. You could give Nagathi some comments and criticisms yourself if you feel so strongly about it.

Elves are alien.

Burn fiction.

I like the concept of alien beings that are completely impossible to understand by a human.

How are you supposed to write about something you cannot understand? It is my belief that you understand them to be how you write about them, but it may be incorrect - we may not be able to understand them in truth, but we are able to understand them as we see them.

Why are we discussing it?

Because I was analysing Nagathi's fiction and now it has unfolded into a heap of different discussions in one thread because both of us have different viewpoints; but due its nature of emotivism, neither of us can "prove" each other right or wrong, thus the discussion diverges into more a more topics until a mod comes along and chops our heads off. Or until we stop.

EDIT: Which I shall try to do now.

Elves suffer from the curse of Aenarion - it's common knowledge, so it isn't assuming anything.

It is described as a blood rage, but that is understanding. After you can establish that, you gain an insight into the emotions of elves. All writing on elves is flawed, because it is our perception of the elves that causes it to be flawed. We should just call them elves and leave it at that, if you don't want flawed fiction.

No, you gain a human understanding of their history

Human understanding is law. Humans apply their way of thinking to everything they perceive. You view the elves to be impossible to understand - nevertheless, you still write and thus understand them in your own way. You said that elves "feel extremes of emotion". That is understanding, if only human understanding. I view the elves as being possible to understand. In my opinion, nothing is impossible to understand - from a human perspective. What is law and truth this century may be lies and falsehood in the next. If you view it from the omniscient point of view, everything is impossible to understand for humans. Perhaps that may clarify the differing points of view. You appear to be approaching it from the "omniscient view", whereas I am approaching it from the "human view".

Perhaps.

Perhaps not.

Not to me.

As you wish.

[Fingol Darkwater]

It is described as a blood rage, but that is understanding

Erm... not quite. The curse of Aenarion is one of those bizaro things that may/may not be impossible to explain how it affects each Elf.

Here's three examples - the Witch King, Mengil Manhide, and Teclis

The Witch King suffers terribly from the curse of Aenarion, yes it could be said that he has blood rage, but he's got far worse problems. For one thing, the curse turned one of the best princes Ulthuan has ever seen into the cause of almost all of the worlds problems. He used his skills to become subtle and manipulative. Even though his plans usually fail, he spends all his time coming up with brilliant plans such as the War of the Beard and the assasination of Aethis the Poet. It's not just blood rage in Malekith.

I don't know enough about Teclis to comment on whether or not he suffers from the typical bi-polar side effects of the curse, but the curse has made Teclis very physically frail. Mentally, he's even greater than the Witch King, but he could get his butt kicked by a three-year-old.

Mengil Manhide however is nothing but blood rage. I think the only thing keeping him from killing his company is that there's always plenty of peasants around to flay.


So in addition to their alien psyche, there's also the curse of Aenarion which makes them even more taboo.

Because of the Rule of Cool. I never said that anything I've written about them is perfect, for example - it's as flawed as anything else, really. However, I write about them because I like the concept of alien beings that are completely impossible to understand by a human.

QFT

[Eldacar]

A rating with words amounts to a description. A rating with numbers amounts to a statistic. Aeliaria is described and doesn't have a statistic assigned to her. Statistics are part of the gaming world, not the background world.

So your opinion, then, is that a description has nothing to do with a statistic at all.

but I already get your point.

Okay, whatever then.

How so? Explain and then perhaps I might agree, rather than question it.

It was left field in that you suddenly changed tack "mid-reply", so to speak.

They are preparing for an oncoming battle. The pressure is already sinking in. My using of "would" and "should" - in fact, my entire argument - is on par with your argument. You may not use the words, but the fact is that you're stating your opinion and I am stating mine. Word play doesn't help.

Missed entirely. Please explain your points better rather than stating "my argument is as good/better because I say so", thanks.

Obviously, it's your perception that it doesn't. And of course it doesn't need to be. But stories are about giving impressions, and those are the impressions are received. Why don't you go and tell Nagathi what you thought about it, rather than refuting what I thought about it?

Nagathi knows what I think about it.

You could give Nagathi some comments and criticisms yourself if you feel so strongly about it.

See above.

Burn fiction.

Over the head.

How are you supposed to write about something you cannot understand? It is my belief that you understand them to be how you write about them, but it may be incorrect - we may not be able to understand them in truth, but we are able to understand them as we see them.

Because in writing about them, it is a flawed perspective that you are giving. And that's one of the things I like - no matter how hard you try and understand their motives, the elves will forever be a mystery.

It is described as a blood rage, but that is understanding. After you can establish that, you gain an insight into the emotions of elves. All writing on elves is flawed, because it is our perception of the elves that causes it to be flawed. We should just call them elves and leave it at that, if you don't want flawed fiction.

I never said I don't want flawed fiction. What I don't want is fiction that isn't true to the elves (which is different from being flawed in this sense - flawed is here a lack of understanding, while not being true to them isn't being true to that lack of understanding). Do you follow that?

Human understanding is law. Humans apply their way of thinking to everything they perceive. You view the elves to be impossible to understand - nevertheless, you still write and thus understand them in your own way. You said that elves "feel extremes of emotion". That is understanding, if only human understanding.

It's Felix Jaeger's observations of Teclis, actually. One minute he's a booze-drinking, sex-crazed pot-smoker, and the next he's a dead calm and composed master of magic. He doesn't understand why Teclis acts that way despite attempts to explain it. He only knows that Teclis does act that way. I know and accept that my understanding of them is flawed, however. And accepting that what you write will likely be flawed is also a fun way to express the differences between seperate elves if you're writing a story from the point of view of a human - it makes for a great deal of confusion, something that's quite fun to write. Especially when you can have the elf be dismissive with the "a human would never understand" line.

You appear to be approaching it from the "omniscient view", whereas I am approaching it from the "human view".

Except the human in-WHFB perspective is that elves are alien and cannot be understood. So... am I missing something here?

Perhaps not.

Maybe.

(Single-word quote replies FTW!)

Now, to address the note on the curse of Aenarion: It is not a blood rage for every elf. That is certainly the most common manifestation of the curse, but that in itself is not the curse. Swordmasters train extremely hard to master the curse, which is why they're considered to be so deadpan - much like Jedi Knights, they are trained to always be cool and calm under fire, while other elves might give in to the near-homicidal tendencies that they confront whenever entering battle (Teclis is shown as suffering from it). At the same time, here it should also be noted that the curse of Aenarion I'm speaking of is not the same one that drives Teclis and Tyrion on to a destiny. That's through their bloodline, not elves in general. Fingol captured the differing effects of the curse quite well with the descriptions of Malekith, Teclis and Mengil, too. To clarify on Teclis, though - the High Loremaster is just as susceptible to the extremes of emotion as any other elf is.

As another note, the curse also differs in general effect among the Asur, Asrai and Druchii. Among the Asur, it's something that they fight to combat and hold in check every single day - it was once postulated that part of the decadence and "getting high" part of Ulthuan's culture is due to the elves trying to escape from whatever it is that they're feeling. The Druchii, on the other hand, have embraced it completely, and revel in it. This brings out a more natural cruelty to their psyche, exposing darker elements of the elven mind (which the Asur fight to hold back). Likewise, the Asrai are more in touch with yet another aspect - the feral, primal rage. The list goes on, but those are the most common manifestations of the curse (but they should not be seen as the curse itself).