Version 4 of My Complete Revised Wood Elf Codex

[Shandrakor]

you have reason,when i was think at this kindred i'm based on the codex not for your revised version.
But the idea of consider the warhawk as core choice if the general of army is an higborn on a great eagle(likewise bretonnia with pegasus knight and lord on a royal pegasus) is operable?

I don't really see a reason to make Warhawk Riders Core choice as no one is going to want to buy that many Warhawk Riders unless they're doing an extremely themed list. In which case, it would probably be better to make a Special Character for the rare occasion such a case is warranted, sort of like how Orion changes the list so Wild Riders are Core, instead of doing the Eternal Guard kind of thing which is mildly crippling / cramping choices to Core selections in our current book at lower point values.

Besides, it's not really enough of a reason to want that Kindred besides to be able to join Warhawk Riders in the first place, which I already explained my reasons for not doing so in the previous post.

[Chacho]

In this case i will get to work a special character

[Doorstepwaster]

So I found a magic item comparable so the Bow of Lathain - have you seen high elfs magic bow worth 60 pts? It acts as a bolt thrower, which means s6, d3 wounds. I think this items price is worth noticing when considering the cost or effect of the Bow of Lathain.

The Bow of Lathain of course is a much needed high strength item, but at the same time, it should be balanced and in my opinion it should either cost around 100 pts or be s6 or 7. Of course I might be wrong.

[Lighteater]

High elves have many ways, to get high strength attacks and bolt throwers. So the bow is for them a nice addition, but not much more. For wood elves, the bow is much better, it gives them a way to deal with high toughness/armour foes. So a bit lower point costs is here better, cause there is no alternative.

[Shandrakor]

So I found a magic item comparable so the Bow of Lathain - have you seen high elfs magic bow worth 60 pts? It acts as a bolt thrower, which means s6, d3 wounds. I think this items price is worth noticing when considering the cost or effect of the Bow of Lathain.

The Bow of Lathain of course is a much needed high strength item, but at the same time, it should be balanced and in my opinion it should either cost around 100 pts or be s6 or 7. Of course I might be wrong.

The Bow of the Seafarer can also be used to Stand and Shoot with and is over priced. No High Elven player is going to use that magic item when they can pay for 2+ of the same or something better as a rare choice (multi-shot with Repeater Bolt Throwers is usually better than single shot). Besides, most players don't even use Bolt Throwers any more either because they're awful in comparison to Stone Throwers and Cannons.

The Bow of Lathain was made with that in consideration. The easiest way to tone down the Bow of Lathain is just to reduce the damage output to D3 Wounds and suddenly it's comparable to the Bow of the Seafarer in value because it can't be Stand and Shot with. The problem is that then it might not be even worth taking, considering you'll likely only kill one, maybe 2 if you're lucky, Monsters or opposing War Machines with it in a game. That's how the current Bow of Loren and Arcane Bodkins combo is currently (usually not worth the points) and I didn't want to make a repeat of that in the revised army book...

High elves have many ways, to get high strength attacks and bolt throwers. So the bow is for them a nice addition, but not much more. For wood elves, the bow is much better, it gives them a way to deal with high toughness/armour foes. So a bit lower point costs is here better, cause there is no alternative.

This is another consideration to come into play. Many people don't realize that a Wood Elf player really has nothing in their arsenal that can put reliable damage on a Steam Tank except maybe the Amber Spear (if you get it off in the first place, and it Wounds) from Lore of Beasts and so this Bow was an option (one of very few) for that and other extremely high Toughness targets.

[NDaehn]

I Think you need to make waywatchers 2 attacks base. Then they would get 2 shots each, to represent their fluff of "being able to loose a volley of arrows before the enemy can blink." They are the greatest archers in the world after all. And I think their 6+ Dodge save seems a little off. It just doesnt seem like it fits with the rules.

Anyways just my 2 cents.

[Shandrakor]

I Think you need to make waywatchers 2 attacks base. Then they would get 2 shots each, to represent their fluff of "being able to loose a volley of arrows before the enemy can blink." They are the greatest archers in the world after all. And I think their 6+ Dodge save seems a little off. It just doesnt seem like it fits with the rules.

Anyways just my 2 cents.

Originally they were 2 attacks each and it was too strong, so they were brought back down to 1 attack each with a points reduction. The Glade Guard Longbows rule, along with an extra 6" range, and the minor defensive upgrades make them worth the lowered cost now.

[aPickledGinger]

Great Job on the list. Much of the same as I would like to see in a list. I did have a couple of things I wondered if you would consider:

Wild Riders at T4 - The reason for this is the fact that these elves have transcended beyond normal wood elves. As they take on aspects of the forest spirits I would a high toughness may be appropriate. This would extend to Kindreds as well. I think this may even be appropriate with Alters as they are taking on more animalistic aspects.

Waywatchers can select their arrows - Much like the dances the wardancers get to chose. The waywatchers can chose from a few different shooting attacks for example, 1 for killing blow, 1 for poison attacks and ect.

Just a few thoughts, otherwise I really enjoyed the list and as others have mentioned, I would love it if GW had something like this in mind whenever they get around to releasing our new book.
-Josh

[Shandrakor]

Great Job on the list. Much of the same as I would like to see in a list. I did have a couple of things I wondered if you would consider:

Thanks Ronean, glad you like it.

Wild Riders at T4 - The reason for this is the fact that these elves have transcended beyond normal wood elves. As they take on aspects of the forest spirits I would a high toughness may be appropriate. This would extend to Kindreds as well. I think this may even be appropriate with Alters as they are taking on more animalistic aspects.

You know, originally I had put Wild Riders at T4 in previous revisions, but then I felt like the price hike on them to compensate for their new potency would be counter-productive, so I just gave them Shields and a True Ward Save (via updated Forest Spirit rules) and they're good to go for the same cost as now.

Now the Sylvan Knights (Great Stag riders) I made in another thread are Toughness 4 and were the more experienced and older Wild Riders who were the more progressed in their transformation to the 'Wild Side' fluff-wise. I was probably going to add the Monstrous Cavalry so we could run our characters on Great Stags and Unicorns themselves to garner the Look Out Sir! rules and fill the real heavy cavalry role in our army. Also they would replace the 'chariot-like' Fae Thunder I created to add some sort of Impact Hits to the army (via the updated Great Stags in the Storms of Magic book rules).

Waywatchers can select their arrows - Much like the dances the wardancers get to chose. The waywatchers can chose from a few different shooting attacks for example, 1 for killing blow, 1 for poison attacks and ect.

I actually quite like this idea. Something like add 1 point for each new type of arrow with Killing Blow automatic. The options would be like this:

(Free) Lethal Shot: Killing Blow
(1 pt) Venom Shot: Poisoned Arrows
(1 pt) Flaming Shot: Flaming Arrows

So that's 20 - 22 points for basic Waywatchers to Waywatchers with both arrow bonus types. All Waywatchers in the unit would have to purchase the same extra arrows and only one bonus could be used at a time (Killing Blow, Poison, or Flaming).

Just a few thoughts, otherwise I really enjoyed the list and as others have mentioned, I would love it if GW had something like this in mind whenever they get around to releasing our new book.
-Josh

Thanks again for the props and new ideas.

[Mythraine]

Hey Shandrakor.

Great list. It has everything I believe would make Wood Elves competitive, versatile, varied and most importantly, fun to play again. And it accentuates the strengths rather than just filling up the weaknesses. I plan to push my playing group to try these rules out. Maybe not the new units, spells and magic items, but definitely the updated units and rules.

The Lizardmen played in my group did bring up an interesting point: The current Warhawks, at only 5 point more, when compared to Terrdons are probably too good. Not by a lot, I thought maybe lose the light armour and ability to choose ambush and keep at 35 (still have +6 AS, +5 Ward and MR(1)), or keep the benefits and bump back to 40. Thoughts?

[Shandrakor]

Hey Shandrakor.
Great list. It has everything I believe would make Wood Elves competitive, versatile, varied and most importantly, fun to play again. And it accentuates the strengths rather than just filling up the weaknesses. I plan to push my playing group to try these rules out. Maybe not the new units, spells and magic items, but definitely the updated units and rules.

Sure, try what you like and see what you think, then tell me what you think.

The Lizardmen played in my group did bring up an interesting point: The current Warhawks, at only 5 point more, when compared to Terrdons are probably too good. Not by a lot, I thought maybe lose the light armour and ability to choose ambush and keep at 35 (still have +6 AS, +5 Ward and MR(1)), or keep the benefits and bump back to 40. Thoughts?

Terradon Riders have Drop Rocks and Jungle Poisons on top of almost everything Warhawks have besides the hit and run rule (that Warhawks have) and the Talismanic Tattoos. The thing is that I agree with you though. Originally I had them at 36 points and people were complaining it was too expensive, but really they probably don't even need the Light Armor to be effective and the 5+ Ward, higher strength on the charge, and hit and run is worth 6-8 points a model. Then again, Terradons might be slightly over priced as well, so I'd probably lean more towards what I originally had them at (36 pts) rather than 40.

Anyways, thanks for the comments.

[PointedDoom]

Like everyone i really enjoy your codex. I just have a question. What is the logic behind lore of heavens instead of say the lore of light the lore of light seems to me to have more synergy with the WE. Thanks for all the hard work.

[Lighteater]

Woodies have fluffwise some experience in divination an prophecies, so the lore of heavens is a good choice. Lore of light makes a stronger lore, most of the times, but fluffwise heavens, beast, life and shadows are the way to go in my opinion.

[Moose123]

Love this!! I would use this list in a heartbeat. Makes wood elves competetive with a list simmilar to what's played now, glade guard, dryads, treekin, treeman... And the best part about this is that it gives us something all of the top armies have that all the lower tier armies don't, options.

[Shandrakor]

Like everyone i really enjoy your codex. I just have a question. What is the logic behind lore of heavens instead of say the lore of light the lore of light seems to me to have more synergy with the WE. Thanks for all the hard work.

Thanks for the praise PointedDoom! Lighteater pretty much hit it with the nail on the head --

Woodies have fluffwise some experience in divination an prophecies, so the lore of heavens is a good choice. Lore of light makes a stronger lore, most of the times, but fluffwise heavens, beast, life and shadows are the way to go in my opinion.

The only thing to add to this is that Wood Elves are a nature loving folk that sit out and star gaze a lot more than other nations probably do. This might lead to a more sky based magic for some of their people and beyond that, Ariel and Naieth have been shown in the fluff to use divination magic quite often. So, Heavens fits the bill.

Light magic on the other hand is more to do with exorcisms and spreading the 'holy word.' So, I think more like organized religion of the Empire more than the Wood Elves.

Love this!! I would use this list in a heartbeat. Makes wood elves competetive with a list simmilar to what's played now, glade guard, dryads, treekin, treeman... And the best part about this is that it gives us something all of the top armies have that all the lower tier armies don't, options.

Yeah, options are a good thing, and not options that are non-options like what we have now. Making every unit in the army book worth taking for one reason or another was my primary goal with this list in mind.

Anyways, thanks for the kind words everyone and glad you like it!

[PointedDoom]

Ah, I see now. Heaven does make a lot of fluff sense. Which I love. The fluff and feel of the army are what keep me playing after all. And i hadn't considered that aspect of the light lore, just considering all the spells and their uses it seemed niffty along with the duality of the Asrai light and shadow life(harvest) and beast(hunting) in those cases Istha and Kurnous respectivly. Still i absolutly love the codex and wish my friends would let me use it.

[HaeSuse]

All Wood Elven units may march and shoot when using Longbows (including Magical/Asrai ones). All shooting elements using Longbows, (including Magical/Asrai ones) in the Wood Elf army do not suffer the -1 to hit for moving and shooting and may fire with a quantity of shots equal to their Attacks profile with no -1 to hit for Multiple Shots.

This is cool, but needs a qualifier. For the shooting an amount of times = to their attacks profile, it should be mentioned that this is the unmodified attacks profile. B/c, otherwise, the models would get one more shot per turn from having frenzy or extra hand weapons, which seems wrong (especially from xtra hand weapon- could maybe see it with frenzy). If this has already been mentioned, I apologize!

Awesome indy army book though.

[HaeSuse]

Also, I think Fae Bewitchment is a bit too strong. Maybe removes steadfast, but I don't think it should be able to remove stubborn.

EDIT PS: Also, the hit-and-run rule needs one clarification. It says: "when it comes time to take a break test...". Well, not all combats end in break tests... Needs a qualifier for drawn combats.

EDIT PPS: Ever get around to special characters? All 3 in the current book are awful. I think Orion is workable, if you drop his points by a TON. And I think Drycah is workable, if she also changes Treekin to core (dropping core to ONLY dryads is too restrictive). The sisters are just piss poor.


One last EDIT PPPS: The Crown of Thorns needs to be a bit more expensive. In the BRB any items that gives +1 to STR TOUG or ATT = 20 points. Always. So, I think bare minimum is 60 points plus whatever 1 AS is worth. 65? 70?

[Kulgan86]

I wonder if my friend would allow me a game with your rules Shand. Problem is he's quite new to the hobby, and please sit down but : he states Wood Elves are overpowerd and Dark Elves are not. Yes I can see you smile/laugh at me now. I am getting him into shape though and hopefully in a few more games he'll be beating me so I can use this list

[Shandrakor]

All Wood Elven units may march and shoot when using Longbows (including Magical/Asrai ones). All shooting elements using Longbows, (including Magical/Asrai ones) in the Wood Elf army do not suffer the -1 to hit for moving and shooting and may fire with a quantity of shots equal to their Attacks profile with no -1 to hit for Multiple Shots.

This is cool, but needs a qualifier. For the shooting an amount of times = to their attacks profile, it should be mentioned that this is the unmodified attacks profile. B/c, otherwise, the models would get one more shot per turn from having frenzy or extra hand weapons, which seems wrong (especially from xtra hand weapon- could maybe see it with frenzy). If this has already been mentioned, I apologize!

Extra Attack weapons (i.e. Extra Hand Weapon or magical weapons that give bonus attacks) are already covered by the BRB FAQ stating that you only get those bonuses when the weapons are wielded in close combat. This was mentioned before in this thread too.

I want to leave it so the unit(s) and character(s) will get bonus shots from magic or weird other bonuses but not from other weapons, so Attacks profile it is. This is just imitating the Bow of Loren and Savage Beast of Horros combination in effectiveness, which will still be the only +Attacks spell that Wood Elves have access to in a normal game.

Also, I think Fae Bewitchment is a bit too strong. Maybe removes steadfast, but I don't think it should be able to remove stubborn.

Steadfast and Stubborn do the exact same thing, so why would you limit it to one or the other? That just gets confusing.

EDIT PS: Also, the hit-and-run rule needs one clarification. It says: "when it comes time to take a break test...". Well, not all combats end in break tests... Needs a qualifier for drawn combats.

Ok, so I should state: "When it comes time to tally up the combat results..." due to the possibility of a draw instead of break tests. That's the only other result of combat.

EDIT PPS: Ever get around to special characters? All 3 in the current book are awful. I think Orion is workable, if you drop his points by a TON. And I think Drycah is workable, if she also changes Treekin to core (dropping core to ONLY dryads is too restrictive). The sisters are just piss poor.

Yes, I redid all of the current, some older ones, and made a couple of my own special character over in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=21231

One last EDIT PPPS: The Crown of Thorns needs to be a bit more expensive. In the BRB any items that gives +1 to STR TOUG or ATT = 20 points. Always. So, I think bare minimum is 60 points plus whatever 1 AS is worth. 65? 70?

I went through and compared a Highborn equipped with the Crown of Thorns and Talisman of Preservation to the competition and you were right, he was slightly under-priced for effectiveness, so something like 65 may be reasonable, you just lose survivability to gain the bonus to S/A/T. End result is something like this at 65 points for the crown:

Highborn: Crown of Thorns + Stone of Rebirth + Potion of Foolhardiness + Heavy Armor + Extra Hand Weapon
Which comes out to 257 points for this modified stat line:
M5 WS7 BS6 S5 T4 W3 I7 A5(6) Ld10
With a 4+ Armor Save and 2+ Ward Save on last Wound. (+1 Attack on a charge once too.)

Awesome indy army book though.

Thank you for your praise. Just trying to get Wood Elves into a place where there's more options than Glade Guard, Dryads, Treekin, Treemen, and Great Eagles as a base, while still retaining those units functionality.

I wonder if my friend would allow me a game with your rules Shand. Problem is he's quite new to the hobby, and please sit down but : he states Wood Elves are overpowerd and Dark Elves are not. Yes I can see you smile/laugh at me now. I am getting him into shape though and hopefully in a few more games he'll be beating me so I can use this list

I actually find Dark Elves to be one of the easier armies for Wood Elves to deal with. Daemons of Chaos, Dwarves, Skaven, and Warriors of Chaos are the harder ones. Anyways, good luck bringing your friend up to snuff and hopefully you'll get some good games in then.

[HaeSuse]

Steadfast and Stubborn do the exact same thing, so why would you limit it to one or the other? That just gets confusing.

Sort of. But stubborn is meant to indicate something entirely different. Steadfast is just, "we have twice as many guys as them, we can pull this out!!!". Stubborn is, "don't run away. we are better than that." Also, there isn't a single other skill/spell/ability/rule that removes stubborn in the entire game. It was intended to be that way. There ARE ways to remove steadfast. Breaking stubborn is too powerful, and will never happen.

[Zottel]

Again, very good work here! /bow
how about another army rule- lure into the forest: at the beginning of the WE players turn he rolls a d6. on 4+ this player may put another forest with a diameter of 6" in the WE deployment zone, but only on unoccupied areas.
i thought about this rule, because in my fluff thinking the WEes will try to get deeper into the forest- where they would have more advantages against their enemys. i think its not broken, but if used right, it could be a real annoyance

[sitaavanu]

Just curious, as the hidden and sneaky types Wood Elves are, why do you feel they should not receive access to lore of shadow (spellsinger)

[Shandrakor]

Again, very good work here! /bow
how about another army rule- lure into the forest: at the beginning of the WE players turn he rolls a d6. on 4+ this player may put another forest with a diameter of 6" in the WE deployment zone, but only on unoccupied areas.
i thought about this rule, because in my fluff thinking the WEes will try to get deeper into the forest- where they would have more advantages against their enemys. i think its not broken, but if used right, it could be a real annoyance

Thanks Zottel. Actually, as talked about earlier in this thread (man I need to release a Revision 5, heh) I'm going to add a spell to all Wood Elven Wizards (sort of like Power of Darkness for Dark Elven Wizards) that can summon a forest on the board within 36". Then, as an additional bonus, Wood Elf Wizards will get +1 to cast while wholly within a forest. So, with that and Nature's Awakening, we should be able to modify the board to be useful, I hope.

Just curious, as the hidden and sneaky types Wood Elves are, why do you feel they should not receive access to lore of shadow (spellsinger)

You know, all I was thinking when creating the lores the Wizards could use was that Branchwraiths are an extension of the forest, so they should be restricted to Lore of Athel Loren. Then Spellsingers would know what Spellweavers currently know and Spellweavers would know the new lores, but I guess both Spellsingers and Spellweavers could know all of the lores we have access to instead of just the Spellweavers. This would then mimic how Dark Elven Wizards work currently, with both hero level and lord level characters having access to all of the lores Dark Elves have access to.

Sort of. But stubborn is meant to indicate something entirely different. Steadfast is just, "we have twice as many guys as them, we can pull this out!!!". Stubborn is, "don't run away. we are better than that." Also, there isn't a single other skill/spell/ability/rule that removes stubborn in the entire game. It was intended to be that way. There ARE ways to remove steadfast. Breaking stubborn is too powerful, and will never happen.

I didn't reply right away to this because I had to think about it in terms of battle effectiveness for a while. I think I am beginning to see what you are talking about with this though and I think I will modify said spell (Fae Bewitchment) to be remove Steadfast only, instead of Steadfast and Stubborn (on top of the -1 to hit).