Eternal Guard Fix

[sitaavanu]

Give me mindrazor and I would take a 50 man horde of eternal guard

There is something to shadows in my mind. Shadows is all about trickery and the like. People getting lost in the forest walking the same path one ends up back at the entrance they started in the other comes out in a nest of angry sprites, that's pretty tricky to me. It fits the fluff very well (better than life imo but thats a whole other discussion) and it would give us a way of alleviating some of our issues, ya you could take that 50 man squad but what if you don't get mind razor or a double (with how many games I fail to get amber spear I am acutely aware of how much this sucks)? or when you roll double ones on your round of combat and can't cast the spell? Or you get dispelled? or you cast it but your wizard goes stupid and you loose the spell forever? Now your stuck at str3, high volume of attacks so it's not 'bad' but it's not OP either because you are dependent on a lot of variables (and a rather high casting value) to really pull it off.

But outside of that 1 spell, many high str monsters which are running around auto wounding us have low I: pit of shades
treekin can are costly we can better protect them by giving - str to an opponent
Or maybe you've got a giant spider wrecking your back line, drop his T and archer fire him to death

In my mind Shadows is fluffy, and opens us up to more play styles because of how it complements our army and allowing us to focus on the aspects of the army we really want to, creating some more diversity. Wardancers with the 4+ ward dance and - Str on your opponent suddenly become a viable bunker or -T and killing blow they are now strong assassins.

[Noght]

a few simple fixes in my mind could make them very viable:

1) stubborn without a highborn (i'm iffy on this one personally because of the proposed other fixes)
2) Heavy armor rather than light and a parry save (maintain fight like spears and xhws)
3) core without a highborn
4) lore of shadows, beast, life, athel loren to all casters

With these bumps you would not need to drop the points, instead of them being cheaper they would simply be worth their points. You hit well and fast but not hard (shadows and beast can change this though). You are durable which makes sense as far as the ranking up is concerned and honestly the models look like they are wearing heavy armor to me, life can turn them into a true anvil. Stubborn I like because it keeps with MMU/MSU style that is unique to WEs in this edition since you won't need TONS of dudes to get steadfast at the same time being able to spam core with 15 man stubborn squads throwing out 21 high WS, I, Str (mind razor) is pretty terrifying or instead of high str one unit could have 4+ regen and another have +4 T both of them regrowing guys. Even without becoming core with the above changes I think you'd start to see them as they could now really compete with Treekin (who, while very good are also in need of a MINOR point reduction and a true ward).

This. I'd LOVE it. Wood Elves with Shadow would never lose! Shooty Army vs -Movement foes is game over.
Shadows for Lord. Beast and Life for Lvl 2's. True Ward saves for Spirits. Stubborn Core for EGuard. Points balance and Done.

Noght

[ItsaMario7]

Plastic eternal guard = fixed

[Moose123]

Noght you just summed up all the updating wood elves really need. Oh, and no wounds or stupidity from forests. Boom! half a page in a white dwarf and wood elves are way better, almost competitive

[popisdead]

Eternal Guard are quite expensive points wise.

How would you fix Eternal Guard?

Points drop. Keep them as is but priced below DE spearmen.

[Ravenlord]

Points drop. Keep them as is but priced below DE spearmen.

Why?
They are better both in profile and special rules so I think that would be most unfair, but I would really like to hear your reasoning.

[Ramesesis]

popis might have been joking

[Ravenlord]

ok.
-insert laughter-

[popisdead]

Points drop. Keep them as is but priced below DE spearmen.

Why?
They are better both in profile and special rules so I think that would be most unfair, but I would really like to hear your reasoning.

Not joking at all.

Well they are not a combat block (otherwise they'd have a mechanism for to-hit re-rolls somehow) so they are a CR block.

The things that make them better than HE and DE spearmen are one better WS, one better LD, but in the wrong slot, (and another rank as far as the DE go). The Forest Strider is nice but not hugely significant. It does mean they are slightly more mobile.

Both EG, HE and DE (spearmen) are S3, T3, with a 5+ save. Except,.. none of those units get a parry save so for only 6 ppm DE spearmen are one less armour save (and honestly any real combat threat is going to have Wissans, some Shadow Spell, etc) and that just doesn't matter.

We can put a 5+ Ward on the unit but it costs a lot, weakens the protection of the model carrying it and still,... DE can throw a 5+ ward (cauldron of blood) for less points, better protected and in the end more versatile.

The synergy of HE and DE within their army (magic, abilities, etc) is far greater than EG have access to.

If you were to look at an immediate fix 6 PPM might be about right (not honestly sure just speculation). If you don't think so just toss lots of EG vs lots of goblins and see if you can kill 4 goblins for every EG that dies.

[Ravenlord]

Ah, interesting

I´m going to answer you in shandrakor-style with lots of quotation so that every argument gets answered. Hope it´s ok.

Well they are not a combat block (otherwise they'd have a mechanism for to-hit re-rolls somehow) so they are a CR block.

This I must reluctantly agree with, they are not the strongest combat unit, but as far as combat mechanisms go, the extra rank and extra attack (for the first rank) should count.

The things that make them better than HE and DE spearmen are one better WS, one better LD, but in the wrong slot, (and another rank as far as the DE go). The Forest Strider is nice but not hugely significant. It does mean they are slightly more mobile.

Well, the better profile warrants a higher cost no matter how you put it. Especially a higher Ld, although how much higher can be debated. The part about the wrong slot, I don´t think I understand, sorry.
Agreed that the forest strider isn´t that significant, but it seems unfair that it shouldn´t be worth atleast 1 point. Others have to pay for it, so why not us?

Both EG, HE and DE (spearmen) are S3, T3, with a 5+ save. Except,.. none of those units get a parry save so for only 6 ppm DE spearmen are one less armour save (and honestly any real combat threat is going to have Wissans, some Shadow Spell, etc) and that just doesn't matter.

In their essence Dark elf spear regiments real strength IS their cost. For half the cost they only get; a slightly lower (2 points) profile, a one point lower armour save and alot fewer attacks. On the plus side they do get to re-roll to hit the first round of combat. They are cheap and pretty good for their cost, which I beleive is an inbalance on their side, not ours.

We can put a 5+ Ward on the unit but it costs a lot, weakens the protection of the model carrying it and still,... DE can throw a 5+ ward (cauldron of blood) for less points, better protected and in the end more versatile.

This is about synergy and agree that this matters greatly for a units cost. GW thinks the same according to themselves. This is, in my opinion, where Eternal guards weakness lie. They are hard to fit in a list and to work with where cheap rank and file are not.
This in itself warrants a point drop but not so that they are priced below cheap rank and file such as DE spearmen.

Ok, I think this covers it.
I´m looking forward to hearing your arguments.

[dusk1983]

When popisdead mentioned the wrong slot i assumed he was talking about them being special instead of core (which is very limiting)

This has turned into a difficult question now were talking about synergy. In my opinion models should be priced according to their individual effectiveness not for how effective they *can* be when deployed and used in conjunction with other units correctly. WS5 and high Ld or not, the models are not worth 12 points. Personally i disagree that they'd be worth the same or less than dark elf spearmen as something else pop forgot to mention is the extra attack given to the front rank as well. EG can pump out high WS attacks. I'd prefer (if they kept things the same) 8-10 points per model myself

[Noght]

When popisdead mentioned the wrong slot i assumed he was talking about them being special instead of core (which is very limiting)

This has turned into a difficult question now were talking about synergy. In my opinion models should be priced according to their individual effectiveness not for how effective they *can* be when deployed and used in conjunction with other units correctly. WS5 and high Ld or not, the models are not worth 12 points. Personally i disagree that they'd be worth the same or less than dark elf spearmen as something else pop forgot to mention is the extra attack given to the front rank as well. EG can pump out high WS attacks. I'd prefer (if they kept things the same) 8-10 points per model myself

They will forever be 12 points methinks. Aren't HE spearmen like 11? The problem isn't the ceiling price (EGuard at 12), the problem is the floor price (DE spearmen at 6). I suspect the HE spears will be the base and the floor will rise. There is no way that DE Spearmen will not increase in cost (if the New Empire pricing is seen as a direction).

Keep the price at 12, make them always Stubborn or fix the Bodyguard (sacrifice a guy to save wounds from Lords/Heroes?) or a true Parry save. Any one of the 3 would be just fine, 2 of 3 would be epic.

Noght

[craobhruadh]

HE spearmen are 9 points, and the scary elites troops with GWs that strike at initiative are 15 points.

FWIW, I did a rough calculation and found that 50 HE spearmen is 30 points less than 40 Eternal guard, and they both get 50 attacks if they are in a horde, with various pluses and minuses (spearmen are core, get ASF and corresponding reroll to wound, Eternal guard get WS 5 and stubborn, etc).

[Ravenlord]

Hmmm. High elf specialists (Sword masters and White lions) with Great weapons actually strike first also and often get the re-roll due to initiative 5.
Otherwise it´s true that if you are fighting something that alows for every model in front rank to be in base to base contact, 50 HE Spearmen and 40 Eternal guards each get 50 attacks. The Spearmen will (almost always) get to strike first with a re-roll to hit and the Eternal guards will strike at WS5 and they have Ld9

The EG can be stubborn for a little less points than the Spearmen (a unmodified hero in the unit vs. a hero with the crown of command) and the EG always have the option for a magical banner at 50 points, whilst the HE can choose only one of his core units to carry a magical banner at 25 points.

[Satyr]

Im really enjoying reading all of this.

4+ parry/ward save when in combat?

or a WS value of 5 or x So they hit WS 4or lower on 3's but they always match opponents WS if its 5 or higher.

Bows like lothren sea guard?

[popisdead]

Haven't come up with a good reply so don't count this as debunking my lower points argument

Except, given Slaves, Goblins, Skeletons I think DE Warriors are priced fairly and every infantry-body in the HE book is over costed as well.

[dusk1983]

When popisdead mentioned the wrong slot i assumed he was talking about them being special instead of core (which is very limiting)

This has turned into a difficult question now were talking about synergy. In my opinion models should be priced according to their individual effectiveness not for how effective they *can* be when deployed and used in conjunction with other units correctly. WS5 and high Ld or not, the models are not worth 12 points. Personally i disagree that they'd be worth the same or less than dark elf spearmen as something else pop forgot to mention is the extra attack given to the front rank as well. EG can pump out high WS attacks. I'd prefer (if they kept things the same) 8-10 points per model myself

They will forever be 12 points methinks. Aren't HE spearmen like 11? The problem isn't the ceiling price (EGuard at 12), the problem is the floor price (DE spearmen at 6). I suspect the HE spears will be the base and the floor will rise. There is no way that DE Spearmen will not increase in cost (if the New Empire pricing is seen as a direction).

Keep the price at 12, make them always Stubborn or fix the Bodyguard (sacrifice a guy to save wounds from Lords/Heroes?) or a true Parry save. Any one of the 3 would be just fine, 2 of 3 would be epic.

Noght

I would agree with you about ceiling vs floor price if we didnt have things like chaos warriors running around out there. one chaos warrior is likely to kill 2 if not more eternal guardsmen for what? two points a model more? three?

[Ravenlord]

Do not worry Popisdead, we will await your argument.
I do agree that mentioned infantry is underpriced, but then again -it´s their strength. I feel that 8-9 points for elven infantry is quite fair, including Dark elf Spearmen. Mainly due to Ld and that they absolutly slaughter Skavenslaves and gobbos in combat.

[Billthesurly]

I tell you a story. (Oh great. Here he goes!) There used to be a rule set called WRG, Wargames Research Group - Rules for Ancients Warfare. In those rules the Roman armies always seemed to have the edge over all others. This was deliberate because the designer believed that the Romans had been the best armies in the ancient world so he wrote his rules to make them so. You had to be very good or very lucky to beat a well handled Roman army.
(Is he done yet?)

Chaos fills the role of the Romans in Warhammer Fantasy. The guys at GW have decided that Chaos should be the most powerful force in the game system and therefore they write them to be so. They always have and they always will. Sometimes one edition of the rules will be more egregious than others but it is always biased in favor of Chaos.
(So what's your point?)

Best to leave out Chaos when making comparisons between armies in Warhammer. That math will never add up.
Thus endeth the lesson.
(Finaly!)

[Noght]

Haven't come up with a good reply so don't count this as debunking my lower points argument

Except, given Slaves, Goblins, Skeletons I think DE Warriors are priced fairly and every infantry-body in the HE book is over costed as well.

Except when you compare the 3 differant Elf races the DE Spearmen are undercosted compared to their brethren. (We agree that the Empire infantry going up is folly but that makes WE stronger, addition by subtraction, less guys to kill but Empire is now mainly gunliney, don't be fooled.)

WS 5, 2 Attacks, 5+ AS for 12 (EGuard) - Probably Stubborn, LD 9, no Army rule benefit
WS 4, 1 Attack, 5+ AS for 9 (High Elf) - ASF + Extra Rank Army rule
WS 4, 1 Attack, 5+ AS for 7 (Dark Elf) - Hatred

See the problem? The extra wounds brought to the game also matter in terms of VP and point denial.
Hatred and ASF re-rolls almost completely negates the WS 5. (DE for only a round, HE always get it)
Extra EGuard attacks only first rank so maybe 5 extra?

I don't think that EGuard will come down ever however I expect the DE to rise, HE will probably stay the same.

Noght

[Ravenlord]

Excellent points Noght and Bill. Damn good fellows!

[dusk1983]

I tell you a story. (Oh great. Here he goes!) There used to be a rule set called WRG, Wargames Research Group - Rules for Ancients Warfare. In those rules the Roman armies always seemed to have the edge over all others. This was deliberate because the designer believed that the Romans had been the best armies in the ancient world so he wrote his rules to make them so. You had to be very good or very lucky to beat a well handled Roman army.
(Is he done yet?)

Chaos fills the role of the Romans in Warhammer Fantasy. The guys at GW have decided that Chaos should be the most powerful force in the game system and therefore they write them to be so. They always have and they always will. Sometimes one edition of the rules will be more egregious than others but it is always biased in favor of Chaos.
(So what's your point?)

Best to leave out Chaos when making comparisons between armies in Warhammer. That math will never add up.
Thus endeth the lesson.
(Finaly!)

Ah, Bill I always look forward to your posts. You've got character, sir. I agree with your point re:chaos always being cheese, I just wish it weren't so. WAAAAAAH

[popisdead]

Do not worry Popisdead, we will await your argument.
I do agree that mentioned infantry is underpriced, but then again -it´s their strength. I feel that 8-9 points for elven infantry is quite fair, including Dark elf Spearmen. Mainly due to Ld and that they absolutly slaughter Skavenslaves and gobbos in combat.

Snap! pressure is on. And frankly well we aren't saying much for a debate as we both seem to get they die fast, don't kill, cost a lot and it takes quite a bit of work to make them work. If we were to take our current codex and only change the points on EG I would say 6 PPM would make me take them (not every game either). I think we are just butting heads if you don't feel most elf infantry is overpriced.

Skavenslaves are always lD 10 are they not? Do they get to use the Grey Seer's LD and the Slaves ranks?

I haven't seen any gun line for empire, just Stank & Demigryphs. Also Noght if HE stay the same no one will bother play them unless they get serious toys (and,.. they will. I predict White Lion Cav on 50x75 bases and a kit that makes two towering structures). There isn't enough to make that army work without Teclis/Book of Hoeth. Scared of 40 White Lions? Throw 120 Goblins at them and you still have another 40% points exchange to boost your army with.

Do you ever think maybe it's a 7th ed hold over not a change/adaption to 8th edition (when looking at meta/points/etc) when looking at fixing these things?

any who happy gaming in the end.

[Git]

Skavenslaves are always lD 10 are they not? Do they get to use the Grey Seer's LD and the Slaves ranks?

Ld 2, but within general's Ld and with ranks usually Ld 10.

I haven't seen any gun line for empire, just Stank & Demigryphs.

My Empire opponent has a couple of lists for testing. One gunline and one melee with Demigryphs (and possibly a Stank on the way). We think the melee one is stronger (though the gunline isn't as extensively tested yet). And a lot more fun.

[Ravenlord]

Snap! pressure is on. And frankly well we aren't saying much for a debate as we both seem to get they die fast, don't kill, cost a lot and it takes quite a bit of work to make them work. If we were to take our current codex and only change the points on EG I would say 6 PPM would make me take them (not every game either). I think we are just butting heads if you don't feel most elf infantry is overpriced.

Well, you are right... We are head-butting.