Ikhoornix wrote:The sollution to the Warhawk Rider and Glade Rider problem could be fairly easy to fix:
- Warhawk Riders: Move one attack from the Rider to the Warhawk. Do note that the loss in shooting effectiveness is somewhat compensated by the fact that the model will now have 1 S3 attach and 2 S4 attacks when not charging.
I think it's more likely to make this more of a combat unit than a shooting unit. The only problems with this solution is that mounts cannot support attack, so you're only getting (assuming 3 wide and 2 deep) 6 mount swings and 6 rider swings, instead of currently getting 3 mount swings and 12 rider swings. The other reason being that as a character mount option, this would invalidate the Great Eagle for Lord characters because the Warhawk would get the same quantity of attacks as the Great Eagle, albeit at 1 less Weapon Skill (not worth 20 pts). Overall not a bad suggestion and keeps the line of thought that only characters and champions should naturally have more than 1 shot in any given shooting round. I still may use the similar to hexwraiths' spectral hunters kind of rule instead of having them shoot at all and make them more of a combat support unit instead of an archery platform.
Ikhoornix wrote:- Glade Riders: Lower the general points corst per model and make the bow an upgrade. The upgrade can then be more easily be valued in pointscost in accordance to the strength of having Fast Cav shooting S4 shots.
I don't like this suggestion because it'll mean that people will just use the unit as a cheap chaff unit, which Elven units aren't really designed to be. Either that, or everyone will just buy the bow anyways because we already have Silverback Wolves for that role. Thus there's no reason to make it an option.
Reluctantmatt wrote:Hi shandrakor,
I'm a new member to the site but I've been following your work here for at least 6 months.
I have to say that I'm very impressed with the amount of effort and dedication it must have taken/be taking to compile and revise this list, but also with the extremely balanced and courteous manner in which you've dealt with some of the more impulsive comments!
Hi Reluctantmatt, welcome to the site, and thanks for making my thread the first place you post, heh!
As for the 'impulsive comments,' I think most people on this site only want to see things get better for Wood Elves, so when they post something not totally thought out beforehand, it just takes a little urging in the right direction to get them to say what they really meant. Then you can address any potential problems that arise from what they've brought up.
Reluctantmatt wrote:I agree with the army wide rules you've put in place, however, I've always thought of the glade guard longbows as larger than average (hence the S4), so their use throughout the wood elf list doesn't seem quite right. Would war hawk riders really be able to wield 6ft bows on the back of a hawk? And way watchers over-riding ability is stealth and concealment, does a GG bow work for them fluff wise?
Fluff wise they could just be composite bows really. Asrai Longbow is just a name that came naturally from what already existed in our current book. It could just as easily be just, 'Asrai Bow', and still work just the same. Even the current book uses Longbows on everything already, so I don't really see the problem with Waywatchers and Warhawk Riders with 'Asrai Longbows'.
Reluctantmatt wrote:Ok, units next:
You've only made minor changes to glade guard, dryads and glade riders but barring some points adjustment they weren't broken too much anyway so all good there.
Wild riders and tree kin - all good there!
Great eagle - alls good here
Yeah, where units already felt good enough, only minor points reductions or rules updates felt appropriate in some cases, so these units all mostly stayed the same.
Reluctantmatt wrote:Eternal guard - I particularly like the parry rule. The only gripe I have there is the reference to heavy armour. I've always thought of heavy armour as plate steel (or something equivalent) and for me that doesn't sit well with the wood elves. I don't mind the 5+ save but preferred the old description of the 'eternal guard fighting style'. I'd also like the choice of heavy armour dropped from the character options.
Actually, I think of 'Heavy Armor' as something like Chain Mail or Scale Mail, not as Plate Mail or the super heavy class armor and this reflects well on the game as Empire, Dwarves, and Chaos all have basic armor that provides a 4+ save which is one step above 'Heavy Armor'. Elves have been widely known in all sorts of game systems for their Elven Chainmail as being surprisingly light weight and I don't see any reason that Wood Elves wouldn't have something like that for their combat troops.
Reluctantmatt wrote:Wardancers - glad you dropped the extra movement and the heroic killing blow. Aside from the power against large monsters, the rules seemed a little complex.
Just a couple of minor points; you don't mention that the same dance cannot be performed consecutively in the same combat - was this intentional? Also, the option of a standard bearer seems off to me. For a unit of extreme acrobats, having to carry a standard seems a bit, erm, cumbersome? I know i couldn't pull off my signature triple back flip if i was wearing my heavy shoes. Anyway, if you need static combat res to win a combat with your wardancers, I would suggest you are picking the wrong fights!
Yes, dropping the need to switch dances every turn was intentional. I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to keep performing the same dance in combat over multiple rounds and the fluff doesn't say why this is like this either, so I got rid of it.
As for the standard bearer option, I don't see why they wouldn't have some sort of iconic symbol for each Wardancer troop and on page 27 of the current Wood Elf book you can see a Wardancer taking advantage of a banner to make a spring attack on the enemy. In battle, they could just plant the banner in the ground and use it as some sort of springboard for their maneuvers instead of carrying it themselves. The 'Last Stand' rule for standard bearers forcing the bearer to stand and fight to the death when the rest of a unit flees from combat only makes this seem even more plausible to me.
Reluctantmatt wrote:War hawk riders - I'd imagine that riding on the back of a big old hawk, weight would be a prime factor. So you know what I'm going to say here; light armour? Talismanic tattoos I can see (they need some sort of protection), but an extra 15 kilos of leather isn't going to please a hunting bird - lord knows my dog hates it when I put a saddle on him and ride round the living room. Especially as he's a jack Russell.
Also, see my previous comment about GG longbows.
As with the 'Heavy Armor' option, 'Light Armor' is even one step lighter than the heavier alternative. If 'Heavy Armor' can be lightweight, then 'Light Armor' by definition is going to be even lighter, thus, I could easily see some lightweight armor providing a 6+ armor save that wouldn't encumber a Warhawk Rider too much. Besides, these birds are supposed to be much bigger than your average bird, and thus their strength is much higher to carry heavier things too. You don't get a Strength of 4 for nothing after all. Moose123 brings up other supporting reasons for this as well.
Reluctantmatt wrote:Sylvan knights of Loren - I have to say, the T4 initially felt wrong (as others have mentioned), but after reading the fluff you wrote for them, they not only fit with the army but I think their symbiosis with the forest could be a very interesting direction to take the wood elves as a whole. Suffice to say, they may be my favourite part of the new list. A bit like the red ones in a bag of skittles.
One little niggle, but not a deal breaker, is the scaly skin bit. I know it doesn't literally mean scales but what does it represent? Personally I wouldn't mind having just the 4+ save and dropping the points to 65?
As with anything that has a 'Scaly Skin save' it can mean anything from a Tough Hide to actual Scales on a dragon or lizard. In this case it represents the toughening of the skin into an almost bark-like resilience that goes right along with the fluff that says they look like an elf made of bark.
As for the skittles... I think I prefer the purple ones, but red is good too!
Reluctantmatt wrote:Silverback wolves - a great new unit. I like the differentiation over wolves from other lists with the pack leader howl and the ambushing. They feel like a part of the forest consciousness in response to invaders rather than a directed part of the wood elven force. Not sure on the points value yet, they could be very versatile and they might need a points hike to represent that.
I'm only sad to see the fae swarms loose their spot in the list. I loved the idea of a silent tree line erupting into a carpet of ethereal critters before the volleys of arrows start..... I can see it done in a 'lord of the rings' film style, but without the gay hobbits.
I agree, the Silverback Wolves will likely see an 8 or 9 point cost in the next update. If I raise them to 9 I might increase their Weapon Skill by 1 though.
As for the Fae Swarms, technically Silverback Wolves can fill the gap they left and without the controversial Skaven Slaves rule and be more versatile while they're at it. The fluff bit was the main reason I made them to begin with (along with some urging a way long time ago to do a Swarm unit), but at this point, they didn't really feel very convincing of a slot in the army book anymore.
Reluctantmatt wrote:Treeman - agree with the points adjustment. Just a couple of notes; why not make the tree whack and throw boulder the same upgrade? People tend to think of Treemen as being like a man (2 arms, 2 legs), but why can't they have extra limbs? Like an extra overgrown arm, not dexterous enough for regular combat but perfect for lobbing big rocks (or orcs) or smashing chariots/buildings/giants in the face? Or for applying sunscreen to that bit between your shoulder blades that you just can't get to.
Also, did you mean to increase the strangle root attack by 2"?
I felt like a Boulder big enough to do S4(10) damage was going to be pretty huge and thus take two hands to carry. Tree Whack I figured would be similarly big in that a Treeman would carry a large dead branch or use another dead tree to whack something literally with a tree. Obviously both of those options would require two hands and thus the option for either or and not both.
As for the Strangle-roots attack increasing to 8", yes that was also intended. As with Javelins getting a small bump to their range in this edition, the range increment on Strangle-roots was similarly too small, in my opinion.
Reluctantmatt wrote:Way watchers - mazing. Love it.
Just a thought; if people are uncomfortable with most units having a 5+ ward save (though I know you've justified it) then I think this is a unit I'd drop it from. If they are used well, opponents have a hard enough time taking them out (hell cannon not withstanding - I hate them...).
The main reason Waywatchers got a Ward Save was because of auto-hit artillery. Previously they had Elusiveness which was a -1 to be hit by ballistic skill shots and a 1 in 3 chance for auto-hit ranged weapons to miss them automatically for a turn. They had only a 6+ dodge otherwise. Talismanic Tattoos was just an easy way to get rid of a long rule in favor of something easier to handle and a rule already written for other units in the book.
Reluctantmatt wrote:Tree of life - very interesting new unit. I like the idea of it as a wood elf version of a defensive structure. I have a suggestion for it though. How about any wood elf unit within 6" of the tree counts as behind a defended obstacle when charged? Or perhaps charging enemy units roll an extra D6 and discard the highest when charging said unit? This would represent bushes/vines/roots that spring up. It sort of fits with the rampant regrowth description. I might be tempted to make the wound regeneration rule only apply to the tree itself though, as the 'all units within 8" ' bit seems a little strong to me. If it needs knocking back any more, perhaps it should be a static piece, only moveable with the tree singing spell?
I could imagine this type of defensive force to be found throughout The forest as a sort of guardian to the more valuable areas of Loren.
If I was going to tone down Rampant Regrowth I would probably make it only D3 Wounds per unit, including the Tree itself, instead of just the Tree... If only the Tree of Life gets regenerated, then it's going to just be a Treeman competitor and there's no place for it in the Wood Elf list. As for its potency on its own, I would probably tone down the Strength of the Tree of Life before adding any extra rules that make it harder to get to. I want this support element to be semi-fragile to being broken in combat and run down so that you need to think about where you place it instead of having it being another stubborn and dangerous combat element like the Treeman.
Having the Tree of Life as a one time placement and very difficult to move (Tree-Sung only) is very unnatural feeling for an army that's supposed to be easily relocated and quick.
Reluctantmatt wrote:Ok, I've written quite enough now. I'll continue to critique you amazing work if you like, I'll try to get on to the other areas of your list over the next week or so. Keep up the great work!
Thank you for taking your time to come comment on the list I've created. I much appreciate detailed run downs of how things look to people other than me.